I just hope the media gets a grip and doesn't give them a podium and a voice. Report on it, keep it short and to the point, no rationalisation or summising. Just fact and symapthy for the victim.

Oh dear.

"Frank Gardner adds that while the suspects may have been subject to a security service investigation and possible surveillance in the past, the suggestions he is getting from Whitehall are that there were no indications they were going to do something violent"

"BBC sources have named him as a Muslim convert called Michael Adebolajo"

The fact they are being called terrorists to me says they are already trying to rationalize it....they will no doubt be given lots of protection from the Euro do-gooders....

So then, if the liberal minority were to accept that their experiment has failed then what would be the answer?

Do you tackle insular communities with some kind of forced integration policy, or do you have a standard British-ness test and stick everybody who fails on a raft in the North Sea? Is your answer to a divided society to become more divisive?

The answer would have been not letting swathes of people into the country who had no intention of integrating, no intention of working and no intention of giving up their medieval ideals. However, we can't turn back the clock.

The first thing to be done is instant imprisonment (and deportation if not "British") for any preacher inciting violence against this host country. Also, demolition of any place of worship found to be used as a front for terrorist or paedophilic practices. No crying to the ECHR, no appeals, just gone. You could kill two hooks with one stone by tying Hamza to the wrecking ball before swinging it straight through the side of Finsbury mosque.

It might not see an instant reduction in levels of these acts, but long term it would and it would send a message that it will not to be tolerated in this country.

And the next morning, when every CofE church is rubble?

I only go to any place of worship when forced to through social occasions - weddings, christenings, etc.

The last time I was there I don't remember the cloaked JuJu man at the front inciting the killing of the local population.

Further to this point, any attempt to reject certain groups for their un-Britishness will quickly reach a point where the distinction is impossible to apply. Whether or not multi-culturalism is an "experiment" by a liberal élite is open to question, but what is not in doubt is the fact that the UK in various forms over the centuries has absorbed diasporas from many countries, races, creeds and faiths. We truly are a mongrel nation. Our ability to absorb new and different facets to our "normal" life is part of what makes us British. For any number of socio-economic reasons (among others), the challenge involved in living together peacefully is harder now than possibly at any other time, but there actually isn't any realistic alternative. We all have to accept that "sending 'them' back" is as outdated and laughable a concept as Communism or the idea that one race/sex is inherently more intelligent than another. You can try to round "them" up, but you will quickly find that you're rounding up "us" as well.

But, for the last 400 years every group of foreigners that has come over has integrated with British society. Yes, we have China Town and Carribean communities in areas of cities, but they bring to the party. They work, they integrate, they bring their cuisine and those that sought asylum during the wars of the last century were grateful for the chance to escape. They learnt English, they encouraged their children to speak it, they strove to make a better life with the opportunities afforded them. This was right on their part and also on ours for giving them those opportunities.

There are large parts of many cities within 60 miles of me that are simply no-go areas now. The population do not wish to mix, they do not wish to speak English, they don't want to even acknowledge the English exist until they want free housing and handouts. They insist their children are taught in their mother tongue, they insist their women are covered head-to-toe, they insist that all shop signs are written in their language except the ones on the doors saying "No Whites Allowed," they insist that as non-believers we are only worthy of their hatred. You're from Sheffield, Jim. Don't tell me you haven't seen this with your own eyes?

Citing us all as mongrels because 1500 years ago my Great^70 Grandfather was a Viking is a weak attempt to hide a problem that has arisen in the last 30 years through an open door policy and isn't going to go away allowing things to continue as they are because, you know, it's none of our business what they say about us/do to our working class girls/how they plan to kill us.

Well I've lived in Coventry and Slough, both well known for their ethnic populations, and I've never seen a 'No whites' sign.

As for what language people speak between themselves, how they dress, who they associate with that's part of living in a free country. Isn't freedom part of being British? Or is it only good when you use that freedom to do what you're told?

Your broad-brush, all-foreigners are benefit-scrounging, English-hating, racist, terrorist paedophiles is *exactly* what is going to turn the actions of a couple of nutters into something of national importance, because it's the rhetoric that drives people to burn down mosques, beat up anybody with a dark skin or even vote for UKIP!

I have never made such accusations. I've said there are plenty of examples of people that I've met who aren't those things - my dentist, for example. These are the integrated ones, though. The ones happy to mix with the indigenous population. Strange that, isn't it?

I have voted Tory all my life which is why I'm sad I can no longer do so. CMD and the party just do not represent my political views any more. He and his cronies have failed to be Tory in anyway since taking power. I shall be voting UKIP in every forthcoming election until the Tory party sorts themselves out and represents their core instead of trying to appease to a middle that doesn't like them anyway. I find it hilarious that all hues of party are running scared that their self-serving right to rule might be at threat. It is no longer racist to question our need to be suckling at the sickly teat of the most corrupt organisation on earth - the EU - whether you like it or not.

You are Shinyshoes and I claim my £5.

So people who vote UKIP actively partake in the activities you mention and share the mind set you've so eloquently portrayed? That's one way to generalise different groups of people with a broad brush I suppose...

Well done to Ingrid for trying to intervene and help whilst also making a stand and telling the guy straight that his actions will not have the desired affect he wanted.I bet he wasn't expecting that.

Brewster you've missed the point - they are African not Asian. Converted to Muslim. Not born and bread. These are not the drug dealing paedos that haunt the low levels of society. I've seen the no whites signs. I've also driven past whites view in Bradford with racist comments plastered all over the sign regarding whites. But these are the lowest level of dirt, doing it not because they were born that way but because it sounded like a good idea.

Turned off the story when the reporter said they didn't know if they "were lone wolves" or not

Me neither... but don't you rather think you missed my point?

Two people were arrested in Gillingham last night for attacking a mosque. Having gone to Gillingham to watch football for the last 45 years am I surprised? No. The majority of football fans are fine, but there is a considerable minority who are sub-human idiots and encourage their offspring (often of primary school age) to hurl foul abuse at opposing fans, players and match officials alike. The language directed at a black assistant referee last season during one match prompted me to leave the ground - if I had complained to the perpetrators I would have been hospitalised, and there were no stewards within screaming distance. Just so sad.

Racism is alive and kicking in Britain; it is a generational thing brought about by ignorance and segregation (mostly by choice) in certain areas of the country. I went to school with many Asian kids and therefore have no issues at all, but my 92 year-old mother will still not let certain doctors go near her, which causes a lot of problems. The more integration the better, as familiarity does NOT breed contempt, it breeds trust and friendship.

Blimey, my second rant of the night..... to finish on topic, the ghastly incident in Woolwich is just going to fuel mistrust between races, and the age of the people who carried out this attack really depresses me. It is going to take a long time (more than my lifetime) for the wounds between races and faiths to heal.

I saw your point. I chose to make light of it as we both know it's silly. If a building used to encourage the murder of the inhabitants of the country in which it is built is torn down do you think that justifies the destruction of every CoE church in the UK?

Imagine it was a house used to murder a few children such as, say, the West's residence or Ian Huntley's house. Do you think that razing those properties justifies other paedophiles razing a courthouse or police station?

Either way, most CoE churches are built like castles. They look a lot less fragile than golden painted domes, moot point or not.

You still miss my point, Adam.

If you raze a mosque, do you really think you won't have a riot on your hands? It's not a question of whether it's justified or not, simply that the default reaction these days seems to be riot. You knocked down my mosque/synagogue/church - so I'll knock down yours.

Like it or not - we still live in a world where the stone-age mentality reigns supreme in some areas. As demonstrated by the culprits yesterday.

And that's why I believe it should *not* be treated as anything other than a murder - a particularly foul murder, but I don't suppose there's such a thing as an unfoul murder. You see the actions of a very small subset of a goup of people who are being manipulated by an even smaller subset of people who are using religion the way it was designed: as a controlling mechanism for personal power. Don't dignify it even with comment.

Hmmm bad timing by channel 4 - +100 Asian men raping sub 16 y o white girls and then trafficking them. Batten down the hatches, it's about to get choppy!

EFA.

I am glad this thread correctly identified the two morons as murderers rather than terrorists.

They are no more terrorists than I am ruler of the universe.

The scum that murdered Keith Blakelock were murders and these two are just the same. The drivel that they came out with about us keeping out of "our lands" when one had grown up in Lincoln and lived in Essex London just shows them up for the gullible half-witted fools they are.

Fair call Brewster!
Bliley the lad was local to me, married 10 miles down the road....

You said that multiculturalism had failed - either you believe the majority of the UK's ethnic population is as you described (your denist excepted, naturally), or you believe that the people you described are a minority, in which case why say that multiculturalism has failed?

What's actually the case is that in any sub-group you care to name there will be some people who just don't play nicely with the rest of society. It's nothing to do with the colour of their skin, the god they follow, the country their grandfather was born in or even which football team they support.

Saying, "These people did something bad and they belong to group x, therefore all members of group x are bad" isn't anti-PC or racist it's just flying in the face of everything we observe about our fellow humans on a day-to-day basis - we don't fit nicely in to little boxes like that.

But once you've labelled a group and start treating them as your enemy then you can bet that they will become your enemy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy and the only road you can hope to walk down when you start putting idiots like UKIP in charge.

Finally, consider this - whatever you think of the EU these are bad economic times and Germany alone accounts for £75M of UK exports per day. We have to buy from abroad, we're never going to be a self-sufficient nation, but they don't have to buy from us. UKIP are stupid enough to put their greed for power ahead of the best interests of the nation; are they really your best bet for registering your protest against the Tories?

I imagine we account for at least the same, if not more, for imports from Germany, then there's France, Spain, Italy.... None of those countries are going to want to jeopardise the fiscal arrangements we have. If we went back to the Economic Community that my parents and grandparents voted for and not rule from Brussels by unelected socialists then maybe we could have a harmonious relationship again.

As much as you'd love us to be the same, we are fundamentally different to mainland Europeans because we won the war. We were never occupied. We don't crave peace at any cost, possibly the greatest cost - the ability to self govern. No British citizen, other than the political elite, have ever had a say on whether they want to be part of the EU. The reason all parties are scared is because they know the majority of the country don't want to be and it could ruin their gravy train.

The reason I will vote for UKIP is that the only other choice I have is voting for a Pro-EU party. Cameron promised me a referendum and lied. He's lying about a referendum in 2017 too. He's as crooked as the rest. The only difference amongst the "Big 3" these days is the colour of the tie.

Anyway, I heard a terrible atrocity happened in London yesterday...

Edit :- And for the record, I have never said someone from X community committed X crime therefore everyone from X community is an X criminal, and you know it. I've made my point clear - I think there is collusion and complicity amongst the communities and you can't prove me wrong any more than I can you. The evidence of what's occurring and what's not being reported from within those communities lends itself to my theory, though.

Apart from when we lost the war with Italy ( Rome )and were occupied by them. And when we lost the war with Norway ( Vikings )and were occupied by them, And when we lost the wars with Germany ( Angles and Saxons )and were occupied by them. And when we lost the war with France ( Normans )and were occupied by them. There is no such thing as an indigenous Briton, we are a race of mongrel immigrants and have been for thousands of years. I am part Pict, part Celt, part Norse, part Roman and part Italian who happened to be born a Scot - all directly from elements of my family



Not directly in a specific referendum on the point but in 2010 UKIP received only 3.1% of the national vote and it has only 27,000 members. It appears that the vast majority of the British are making it quite clear that they do not wish to vote for what that party believes in.

See what happens at the next election. The groundswell is very much with UKIP. I predict they'll wipe the floor at the European elections and that they'll have at least 3 MPs in the next GE.

I've already addressed the point about us being a mongrel race earlier in thread. It's true, we are. It also has absolutely no relevance to the problems we face today, either.

In exactly the same way as trying to hold on to some fictitious and outdated concept of a WASP UK in glorious isolation from Europe or the wider world has no relevance. In today's world, where global travel has become a reality for anyone who can scrape together a few hundred dollars, there are no more and will be no more "pure" countries/races where historically indigenous populations can live unaffected or un-enriched by other cultures. Your UKIP gang of xenophobes, finally out of the closet, can close the borders and stick their heads in the sand of good old English beaches and they and their kids may die white, but they will be no more than a fleeting and curious footnote, like the Amish.

Honestly, there are more important things to be addressing than skin colour or culture.

And the EU "the most corrupt organisation in the world"? Blimey, you really have been brainwashed.

And there we are. As soon as someone suggests that self-rule, controlled immigration, and a sensible energy policy based on our needs and not how many useless windmills Brussels wants us to have might be the way forward the R-bomb gets dropped. UKIP are not the NF or the BNP. It has nothing to do with skin colour or culture and everything to do with self determination.

Can you name another trillion dollar organisation that hasn't filed a set of accounts in the last 15 years? If it was Ford the CEO would be going to jail, but it's the EU and their socialist dream can only be A Good Thing®.

Well, UKIP may have no racist dimension, but if that's the case, their immigration policy leaves room for misunderstanding.