Woolwich murder

Blown away by this and the fact that it allegedly took armed response twenty minutes to turn up...Obviously it's still very early and facts are few and far between but it will be interesting to see how long it takes for reprisals to start happening.Be it riots, violence or whatever.This has clearly angered many people if the social media sites are anything to go by.

More importantly, my condolences to the soldier's family and may he rest in peace and hopefully justice will be done for him.

Absolutely disgusting. It's all ready kicking off in Stoke from what I've read on Facebook.

the government will do nothing ... as usual..... sorry to swear on here but they all have no balls and they are all shitbags..... i will be kicking off with my MP over this .... no more of this shit by to many do gooders

It sickens me. I am lost for words.

Mr Cameron has said we will not buckle to terrorism..... Oh really? So what are you going to do Mr Cameron? Assuming the two men survive, are you going to have them taking to court, under armed guard, imprisoned and fed for years to come, all at the tax payers expense? After all, our taxes are at this minute paying for their treatment to keep them alive.

It's believed that the guy had said an eye for an eye, so does that mean for the actions he has carried out, is willing to accept the same treatment? Or does he know that all he has to say is human rights and he will be protected?

It's just two nutters and their religion is irrelevant.

Mentioning their religion would be racist.

Pretending that even moderate members of that religion believe that any non-believers are unclean and deserve what comes to them is fallacy.

It's completely untrue that some places of worship in this country are being used as a thin facade for incitement of terrorism and paedophilia.

It's entirely politically incorrect to believe that the majority of men within a certain religion believe women to be second class citizens despite the laws that govern the countries where it is worshipped preventing women from openly showing their faces or allowing them to own property.

My dentist is a middle class chap of Muslim descent and he's never once chopped my head off.

My utmost condolences to the relatives of the murdered serviceman

Mr Cameron - he is probably better placed to start undoing the collossal damage that the Blair period has invoked on the Country than all the do-gooders currently still in positions of power abuse. Of course that is still no guarantee that change will happen (Blairs Human Rights Act puts paid to that)

As for the here and now - Things are probably just about to go pop, I think (if it hasn't started already)
Thank you Mr Blair, for shoving us back into the dark ages.

(Sorry if thats a bit political for the forum, but another serviceman has died because of that idiots 'leadership' legacy. )

If you have to be a do-gooder to see that revenge is a road with no end then I'll happily step up as a do-gooder. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

We are a civilised country, governed by laws and the people who carried out the horrific and hateful attack today will be dealt with in accordance with those laws. To do anything other makes them something special and makes us something less.

They are two thugs who will be dealt with. They are not their religion, they are not their skin colour, they are not their age, nor their gender. Their motivations were their own and their actions reflect only upon themselves.

to do nothing .....

Hmmmm. Do gooder in my context is one who believes that the person knocking 7 bells out of someone is deep down a 'good person' who should be rewarded with cuddles and gifts.

Yes, to the revenge comment,
And no to the motivation comment.

If the news reporting is properly factual then their motivation (in this event) has been following a religous book. (And it doesnt matter what version/religion of the old fable books you read as all religions ultimately lead to the start of a war).

Personally in Cameron's shoes he can do no right.

Religious views and multiculturalism is always a touchy subject.

But lets not generalise a race or religion for one groups version of what's right or wrong.
If I were Cameron I would let the dust settle for as long as I could and then act within the boundaries of the law but make strict adjustments.

The scary part is this is the country that I'm bringing my babies up in.
I would love to know what's happened in that mans life to make him walk that path and carry out such a gruesome unremorseful act.

Regardless as to what race, religion or politics this bloke is involved in, I find it totally f**ked up that someone can even do this

I feel the same about anyone who murders someone, although more shocked as to the extreme nature of this.

I feel for the soldiers family

Sad very sad.

Makes you wonder what the world is coming to.

Feel for the family of the poor bloke.

It's a disgrace, the action the reasons and what was said.
It's terrible for the family / friends and terrible for the armed forces.
What's worse is that the few are representing so many. The face of Islam is being represented by bombers, terrorists and now complete and utter nut jobs. I am almost starting to believe that there is a sub-culture out there that actually enjoys the kudos of racism and enjoys letting the whole suffer for the acts of a few. For so many years the UK (ethnic British) were represented by the few travelling football fans and for years we were branded (and still are at times) as all being the same, now it looks at though teh same will come for all muslims.
It's about time there was an amendment to the law as the motivation here is so powerful, has such a strong message that a real answer needs to be given. The risk is martordom for the perps and then more copycat actions.

Full respect to the Police for not shooting them dead - it must have been very very very tempting (as we have seen before, jean charles de menezes)

Those scumbags should be publicly executed.

The sad thing is, this sort of thing is an every day occurrence in South Africa, and what happened here yesterday is mild in comparison to what happens over there.

People are always afraid to bring race, colour and religion into it, but the statistics don't lie. The vast majority of murders in SA are carried out by blacks as hate crimes. There is also no excuse like religion. They just kill at random because they are savages and have no disregard for life. Pretty much the same as the two from Woolwich.

Sadly I find myself agreeing with Brewster's comments having spent time allowing my initial feelings of disgust and anger to subside overnight.

There's no way other people in these guy's close circle of friends and family didn't know this was on their minds. They've accumulated a massive amount of knives, machetes and firearms - you don't get those anonymously from Tesco Express!

As for an "eye for an eye" turning the whole world blind i can appreciate that view - but the way it's going there's only one section of the population inflicting such violence whilst most of the rest of us turn our cheeks....to me that's a road to nowhere for non-believers

Our country is one of the safest in terms of murder rates. Even by civilized Western standards.

Yes, occasionally we have horrific things like this that happen but it could happen anywhere. Norway (a country I've visited and would consider to be one of the safest in the world) had one of the worst mass killings of recent history. But it's random, sporadic and shouldn't incite fear into its general population.



I'm not so sure. Obviously it's very early in the reporting stage and difficult to know the true facts, but the video on the news shows a man yielding a couple of knives. One looks to be a meat cleaver, the other looks to be nothing more than a large chef's knife.

Early reports say they may have also had a gun but I didn't see this in the video. I'd say there's a strong chance of a mixture of eye witness and media exaggeration here.

Notwithstanding the above, I echo Andrews comments. This is a barbaric attack carried out by two men on another man.

If they live, they'll go to jail forever where men like the ones who have been protesting outside mosques all night will make their lives worse than they already are.

Yes, that's bound to help and wouldn't play to their 'cause' at all.

Dealing with them is a no win situation.

Apart from the horror of watching the coverage of this unfold, I am struck by two things:
1) As the attack took place yards from Woolwich Barracks and involved a serviceman and given that the ARU took 20-30 minutes to arrive, how come there was no response from within the barracks? Were they aware of what was going on (the rest of the world was), and if so was there a decision made not to respond?
2) The perpetrators have clearly gone for maximum media coverage (especially social media) of their acts and must have known there was a very fair chance that they would survive to be tried. Now that is a dilemma for the Government. I am very keen for the law to be applied as impartially in this case as all others, but it is going to be very difficult to avoid creating a soapbox for the defendants to produce more inflamatory rhetoric (possibly their ultimate goal) and jury selection might be pretty tough too.

I'm sad but not surprised to see so many reactions advocating violence against the men who did this, when the only possible outcome of that would be to gift the best possible recruitment to their demented cause.

And talk of retaliation - retaliate against whom? The perpetrators are in custody; if what is actually being discussed is lawless reprisals against uninvolved members of a community/faith group, etc then welcome to Nazi Britain.

We need to show we are more civilised by example, not less. I don't want the poor dead serviceman's memory or his family's grief cheapened by thuggery.

Also, how amazing were those women who went to try and assist the victim and talk to the killers?

This was a direct quote from the first guy on the scene who witnessed the entire event, that at least one of them had a handgun - i know they're obtainable more easily in london than elsewhere but he bought it/borrowed it from someone - that someone knows his intentions were not honourable or innocent.

I find myself almost as disgusted today by the apologists for these people. It's time that the communities from which these cabbages come root out by them before this stuff can happen. In this instance, other than a mealy mouthed typically sterile statement from the Muslim Council, what have they actually done to change?

Im only just catching up with all this....tragic & shocking.

- Shame they didn't shot the 2 guys dead....now we have to send millions on trials, imprisoning & rehabilitation.

I feel for the soldiers poor family. RIP

Well, it wasn't a direct quote, was it? You're paraphrasing someone who, if it was the same report I heard, claimed that the victim was beheaded. Not from what later reports said. More detail will clearly come out and it ought to be possible to ascertain what weapons were used.

I could probably find half a dozen large kitchen knives at home and you really can buy them in most big supermarkets. One of the perpatrators did appear to have a hand-gun, but to say that their friends must have known their plans because they had some knives is plain bizarre.

If you read the statement by the Muslim Council, it seems pretty clear. What would you prefer them to say? Like it or not, we live in a society that is governed by the rule of law.

One point I would make: these people should be tried for murder. Nothing more, nothing less.

Calling it 'terrorism' gives the act a pseudo-legitimacy; it makes it political by proxy... recall the old declension:

I am a patriot
He is a freedom fighter
You are a terrorist

Irrespective of the motives of the two culprits, this was murder pure and simple: stone age barbaric behaviour by two people rightly abhorred by both their own professed religion and the majority of the public.

Treating this as murder has two major advantages:

1) It demonstrates that the UK is, on the whole, a civilised society. In such a society, 'revenge' is a null concept and punishment/isolation is deferred to the state, with the due process of law and the assumption of innocence until proven guilty. It seems to me that this is as it should be; a vigilante society is *not* somewhere I want to live.

2) It removes the political dimension. It prevents the barbarity of the act hiding behind the justification of religion; it reveals the act for what it was.

Exactly.

I agree with Barnacle, why should two sick idiots derail justice and UK law. To kill them returns the UK to the justice standards of the 3rd world.

This whole event is bizarre, there is still remarkably little information on what happened, who was involved or why and yet everyone is jumping to sad ill informed conclusions before the facts are known.

Violence, regardless under what banner it is perpetrated, is abhorrent. But just to arbitrarily shoot these people is just as bad, and where do you stop? IMHO child abuse is just as abhorrent so shall we shoot that lot too?

These sorts of events are thankfully very rare, and the last time I can remember such a similar sick even was the killing of two soldiers in NI who were dragged from their cars to their death by a mob. However what the NI conflict has shown is matching violence with violence does not solve anything. Talks, reconciliation and learning to live with each others different beliefs is the only peaceful route, but that requires a lot of work, understanding and struggle against your own understandably human emotions and the desire for revenge.

Nutters are nutters and should be treated as such under current correct and civilised justice.

Are there such people?

I haven't heard a single comment either on the news, social media or on here that I would consider to be anything other than utter condemnation of this murder.

I wish they would call it terrorism rather than the universal, grammatically incorrect, use of 'terror', a mangling of language purely to make it sound more dramatic.

However, you are correct, this is murder pure and simple. Embellishing it in any other way (either grammatically correct or not!) does nothing other than stir up the kind of nonsense we are now seeing and hearing.

Some of the posts on Facebook today beggar belief!

Indeed, which is why I had a facebook cull this morning!

I suspect there is far more to this than meets the eye.

Well quite - you can say what you like about people who sell illegal firearms, but they are absolutely rigorous in their background checks, they go to great pains to ensure that the guns they sell won't be used for nefarious purposes and they're always happy to tip off the police if they think that one of their customers might be a bit dodgy.

We have had a great multicultural experiment foisted upon us by politicians wealthy enough that it will never affect them in the name of political correctness because it's A Good Thing™. To question this was decried as racist. No ifs, no buts - if you asked perfectly reasonable questions about integration, infrastructure, availability of housing and services, a disparity in ideologies then you were racist and not to be listened to. This is now coming home to roost.

I've read on the BBC News website that another 54 paedophile gangs are being targeted by police. Fifty-four! Now, there is a slim chance they might all be made up of white, naturalised British, middle-class men. I may be guessing, but I'll take an M please, Bob.

As with the attack carried out yesterday it is a minority of these communities actually carrying out these atrocious crimes, but there has to be complicity from their communities for these crimes to be planned and acted out. There has to be incitement within the communities for these acts to go ahead. There will a be a large section of their respective communities that either know, or strongly suspect, that these things are being planned and yet mouths are kept firmly shut whether through fear of reprisal from their community or religion, or simply that the white devils deserve what they get.

The ideologies of the liberalised west and Islam are like oil and water. There may be a little emulsification where the odd dentist embraces western culture, allows his wife to walk alongside him on the pavement, doesn't refuse his daughter an education or force her to dress like a ninja, but the larger majority will never integrate.

I've met a number of liberalised muslims who would be just as shocked and disgusted at yesterday's crime as I am. That's the difference though, *I* have met them. They have integrated into our society. They mix with the naturalised population and embrace its culture. They are educated and although they may not drink, eat bacon sandwiches, or for the females - go out looking like hookers, they do accept that in this country it is normal/acceptable to do such things.

The larger communities in places such as Luton, Leicester or Bradford don't want to integrate. They see us as a sub-species for not believing in Allah. They see women as a further sub-species for being born female. They see the armed forces as dogs doing their evil bidder's command to be killed in the street.

What are the answers to these problems? I fear that shutting the door after the horse has bolted is largely futile. The video I saw yesterday showed an African looking chap with the murdered soldier's blood all over his hands shouting Praise be Allah. He appeared to speak with a London accent. It's reasonable to suggest they he may have even been born here. Until the ruling liberal minority, living in their leafy suburbs, realise that simply being born here does not make you British we'll carry on having these problems. Until they face up to the fact that their experiment has not just faltered, but outright failed, then the wedge will carry on being driven further.

There once was a chap that spoke of feeling like a Roman, watching the River Tiber foaming with much blood. Well, the streets of London are awash with that of a British soldier...

"Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal."

I just hope the media gets a grip and doesn't give them a podium and a voice. Report on it, keep it short and to the point, no rationalisation or summising. Just fact and symapthy for the victim.

Oh dear.

"Frank Gardner adds that while the suspects may have been subject to a security service investigation and possible surveillance in the past, the suggestions he is getting from Whitehall are that there were no indications they were going to do something violent"

"BBC sources have named him as a Muslim convert called Michael Adebolajo"

The fact they are being called terrorists to me says they are already trying to rationalize it....they will no doubt be given lots of protection from the Euro do-gooders....

So then, if the liberal minority were to accept that their experiment has failed then what would be the answer?

Do you tackle insular communities with some kind of forced integration policy, or do you have a standard British-ness test and stick everybody who fails on a raft in the North Sea? Is your answer to a divided society to become more divisive?

The answer would have been not letting swathes of people into the country who had no intention of integrating, no intention of working and no intention of giving up their medieval ideals. However, we can't turn back the clock.

The first thing to be done is instant imprisonment (and deportation if not "British") for any preacher inciting violence against this host country. Also, demolition of any place of worship found to be used as a front for terrorist or paedophilic practices. No crying to the ECHR, no appeals, just gone. You could kill two hooks with one stone by tying Hamza to the wrecking ball before swinging it straight through the side of Finsbury mosque.

It might not see an instant reduction in levels of these acts, but long term it would and it would send a message that it will not to be tolerated in this country.

And the next morning, when every CofE church is rubble?

I only go to any place of worship when forced to through social occasions - weddings, christenings, etc.

The last time I was there I don't remember the cloaked JuJu man at the front inciting the killing of the local population.

Further to this point, any attempt to reject certain groups for their un-Britishness will quickly reach a point where the distinction is impossible to apply. Whether or not multi-culturalism is an "experiment" by a liberal élite is open to question, but what is not in doubt is the fact that the UK in various forms over the centuries has absorbed diasporas from many countries, races, creeds and faiths. We truly are a mongrel nation. Our ability to absorb new and different facets to our "normal" life is part of what makes us British. For any number of socio-economic reasons (among others), the challenge involved in living together peacefully is harder now than possibly at any other time, but there actually isn't any realistic alternative. We all have to accept that "sending 'them' back" is as outdated and laughable a concept as Communism or the idea that one race/sex is inherently more intelligent than another. You can try to round "them" up, but you will quickly find that you're rounding up "us" as well.

But, for the last 400 years every group of foreigners that has come over has integrated with British society. Yes, we have China Town and Carribean communities in areas of cities, but they bring to the party. They work, they integrate, they bring their cuisine and those that sought asylum during the wars of the last century were grateful for the chance to escape. They learnt English, they encouraged their children to speak it, they strove to make a better life with the opportunities afforded them. This was right on their part and also on ours for giving them those opportunities.

There are large parts of many cities within 60 miles of me that are simply no-go areas now. The population do not wish to mix, they do not wish to speak English, they don't want to even acknowledge the English exist until they want free housing and handouts. They insist their children are taught in their mother tongue, they insist their women are covered head-to-toe, they insist that all shop signs are written in their language except the ones on the doors saying "No Whites Allowed," they insist that as non-believers we are only worthy of their hatred. You're from Sheffield, Jim. Don't tell me you haven't seen this with your own eyes?

Citing us all as mongrels because 1500 years ago my Great^70 Grandfather was a Viking is a weak attempt to hide a problem that has arisen in the last 30 years through an open door policy and isn't going to go away allowing things to continue as they are because, you know, it's none of our business what they say about us/do to our working class girls/how they plan to kill us.

Well I've lived in Coventry and Slough, both well known for their ethnic populations, and I've never seen a 'No whites' sign.

As for what language people speak between themselves, how they dress, who they associate with that's part of living in a free country. Isn't freedom part of being British? Or is it only good when you use that freedom to do what you're told?

Your broad-brush, all-foreigners are benefit-scrounging, English-hating, racist, terrorist paedophiles is *exactly* what is going to turn the actions of a couple of nutters into something of national importance, because it's the rhetoric that drives people to burn down mosques, beat up anybody with a dark skin or even vote for UKIP!

I have never made such accusations. I've said there are plenty of examples of people that I've met who aren't those things - my dentist, for example. These are the integrated ones, though. The ones happy to mix with the indigenous population. Strange that, isn't it?

I have voted Tory all my life which is why I'm sad I can no longer do so. CMD and the party just do not represent my political views any more. He and his cronies have failed to be Tory in anyway since taking power. I shall be voting UKIP in every forthcoming election until the Tory party sorts themselves out and represents their core instead of trying to appease to a middle that doesn't like them anyway. I find it hilarious that all hues of party are running scared that their self-serving right to rule might be at threat. It is no longer racist to question our need to be suckling at the sickly teat of the most corrupt organisation on earth - the EU - whether you like it or not.

You are Shinyshoes and I claim my £5.

So people who vote UKIP actively partake in the activities you mention and share the mind set you've so eloquently portrayed? That's one way to generalise different groups of people with a broad brush I suppose...

Well done to Ingrid for trying to intervene and help whilst also making a stand and telling the guy straight that his actions will not have the desired affect he wanted.I bet he wasn't expecting that.

Brewster you've missed the point - they are African not Asian. Converted to Muslim. Not born and bread. These are not the drug dealing paedos that haunt the low levels of society. I've seen the no whites signs. I've also driven past whites view in Bradford with racist comments plastered all over the sign regarding whites. But these are the lowest level of dirt, doing it not because they were born that way but because it sounded like a good idea.

Turned off the story when the reporter said they didn't know if they "were lone wolves" or not

Me neither... but don't you rather think you missed my point?

Two people were arrested in Gillingham last night for attacking a mosque. Having gone to Gillingham to watch football for the last 45 years am I surprised? No. The majority of football fans are fine, but there is a considerable minority who are sub-human idiots and encourage their offspring (often of primary school age) to hurl foul abuse at opposing fans, players and match officials alike. The language directed at a black assistant referee last season during one match prompted me to leave the ground - if I had complained to the perpetrators I would have been hospitalised, and there were no stewards within screaming distance. Just so sad.

Racism is alive and kicking in Britain; it is a generational thing brought about by ignorance and segregation (mostly by choice) in certain areas of the country. I went to school with many Asian kids and therefore have no issues at all, but my 92 year-old mother will still not let certain doctors go near her, which causes a lot of problems. The more integration the better, as familiarity does NOT breed contempt, it breeds trust and friendship.

Blimey, my second rant of the night..... to finish on topic, the ghastly incident in Woolwich is just going to fuel mistrust between races, and the age of the people who carried out this attack really depresses me. It is going to take a long time (more than my lifetime) for the wounds between races and faiths to heal.

I saw your point. I chose to make light of it as we both know it's silly. If a building used to encourage the murder of the inhabitants of the country in which it is built is torn down do you think that justifies the destruction of every CoE church in the UK?

Imagine it was a house used to murder a few children such as, say, the West's residence or Ian Huntley's house. Do you think that razing those properties justifies other paedophiles razing a courthouse or police station?

Either way, most CoE churches are built like castles. They look a lot less fragile than golden painted domes, moot point or not.

You still miss my point, Adam.

If you raze a mosque, do you really think you won't have a riot on your hands? It's not a question of whether it's justified or not, simply that the default reaction these days seems to be riot. You knocked down my mosque/synagogue/church - so I'll knock down yours.

Like it or not - we still live in a world where the stone-age mentality reigns supreme in some areas. As demonstrated by the culprits yesterday.

And that's why I believe it should *not* be treated as anything other than a murder - a particularly foul murder, but I don't suppose there's such a thing as an unfoul murder. You see the actions of a very small subset of a goup of people who are being manipulated by an even smaller subset of people who are using religion the way it was designed: as a controlling mechanism for personal power. Don't dignify it even with comment.

Hmmm bad timing by channel 4 - +100 Asian men raping sub 16 y o white girls and then trafficking them. Batten down the hatches, it's about to get choppy!

EFA.

I am glad this thread correctly identified the two morons as murderers rather than terrorists.

They are no more terrorists than I am ruler of the universe.

The scum that murdered Keith Blakelock were murders and these two are just the same. The drivel that they came out with about us keeping out of "our lands" when one had grown up in Lincoln and lived in Essex London just shows them up for the gullible half-witted fools they are.

Fair call Brewster!
Bliley the lad was local to me, married 10 miles down the road....

You said that multiculturalism had failed - either you believe the majority of the UK's ethnic population is as you described (your denist excepted, naturally), or you believe that the people you described are a minority, in which case why say that multiculturalism has failed?

What's actually the case is that in any sub-group you care to name there will be some people who just don't play nicely with the rest of society. It's nothing to do with the colour of their skin, the god they follow, the country their grandfather was born in or even which football team they support.

Saying, "These people did something bad and they belong to group x, therefore all members of group x are bad" isn't anti-PC or racist it's just flying in the face of everything we observe about our fellow humans on a day-to-day basis - we don't fit nicely in to little boxes like that.

But once you've labelled a group and start treating them as your enemy then you can bet that they will become your enemy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy and the only road you can hope to walk down when you start putting idiots like UKIP in charge.

Finally, consider this - whatever you think of the EU these are bad economic times and Germany alone accounts for £75M of UK exports per day. We have to buy from abroad, we're never going to be a self-sufficient nation, but they don't have to buy from us. UKIP are stupid enough to put their greed for power ahead of the best interests of the nation; are they really your best bet for registering your protest against the Tories?

I imagine we account for at least the same, if not more, for imports from Germany, then there's France, Spain, Italy.... None of those countries are going to want to jeopardise the fiscal arrangements we have. If we went back to the Economic Community that my parents and grandparents voted for and not rule from Brussels by unelected socialists then maybe we could have a harmonious relationship again.

As much as you'd love us to be the same, we are fundamentally different to mainland Europeans because we won the war. We were never occupied. We don't crave peace at any cost, possibly the greatest cost - the ability to self govern. No British citizen, other than the political elite, have ever had a say on whether they want to be part of the EU. The reason all parties are scared is because they know the majority of the country don't want to be and it could ruin their gravy train.

The reason I will vote for UKIP is that the only other choice I have is voting for a Pro-EU party. Cameron promised me a referendum and lied. He's lying about a referendum in 2017 too. He's as crooked as the rest. The only difference amongst the "Big 3" these days is the colour of the tie.

Anyway, I heard a terrible atrocity happened in London yesterday...

Edit :- And for the record, I have never said someone from X community committed X crime therefore everyone from X community is an X criminal, and you know it. I've made my point clear - I think there is collusion and complicity amongst the communities and you can't prove me wrong any more than I can you. The evidence of what's occurring and what's not being reported from within those communities lends itself to my theory, though.

Apart from when we lost the war with Italy ( Rome )and were occupied by them. And when we lost the war with Norway ( Vikings )and were occupied by them, And when we lost the wars with Germany ( Angles and Saxons )and were occupied by them. And when we lost the war with France ( Normans )and were occupied by them. There is no such thing as an indigenous Briton, we are a race of mongrel immigrants and have been for thousands of years. I am part Pict, part Celt, part Norse, part Roman and part Italian who happened to be born a Scot - all directly from elements of my family



Not directly in a specific referendum on the point but in 2010 UKIP received only 3.1% of the national vote and it has only 27,000 members. It appears that the vast majority of the British are making it quite clear that they do not wish to vote for what that party believes in.

See what happens at the next election. The groundswell is very much with UKIP. I predict they'll wipe the floor at the European elections and that they'll have at least 3 MPs in the next GE.

I've already addressed the point about us being a mongrel race earlier in thread. It's true, we are. It also has absolutely no relevance to the problems we face today, either.

In exactly the same way as trying to hold on to some fictitious and outdated concept of a WASP UK in glorious isolation from Europe or the wider world has no relevance. In today's world, where global travel has become a reality for anyone who can scrape together a few hundred dollars, there are no more and will be no more "pure" countries/races where historically indigenous populations can live unaffected or un-enriched by other cultures. Your UKIP gang of xenophobes, finally out of the closet, can close the borders and stick their heads in the sand of good old English beaches and they and their kids may die white, but they will be no more than a fleeting and curious footnote, like the Amish.

Honestly, there are more important things to be addressing than skin colour or culture.

And the EU "the most corrupt organisation in the world"? Blimey, you really have been brainwashed.

And there we are. As soon as someone suggests that self-rule, controlled immigration, and a sensible energy policy based on our needs and not how many useless windmills Brussels wants us to have might be the way forward the R-bomb gets dropped. UKIP are not the NF or the BNP. It has nothing to do with skin colour or culture and everything to do with self determination.

Can you name another trillion dollar organisation that hasn't filed a set of accounts in the last 15 years? If it was Ford the CEO would be going to jail, but it's the EU and their socialist dream can only be A Good Thing®.

Well, UKIP may have no racist dimension, but if that's the case, their immigration policy leaves room for misunderstanding.

An immigration policy based on an individuals ability to contribute to the country allowing them in is racist? Australia and Canada must terribly xenophobic. Strange that they're thriving in these tough economic times.

We already have an immigration policy based on exactly that and have done for years and years.

Which part of our current policy do you imagine is 'open door'? Why don't you go and look into what it actually takes to get into this country and come back with some facts?

Anyway, none of this is particularly relevant to this thread - the two men who carried out Wednesday's attack were British because although you maintain that being born in Britain doesn't make you British international law says you're wrong.

The open door part is the bit where we can't kick them back out for being illegal as it's against their European human rights and instead we have to house and feed them then let them suck some more life out of the economy and add nothing too it.
I'm all for migration - lets see how it works in say the UAE, yep that's right you do as they say or you're out. You contribute or you're out, you are sponsored by someone. There are no housing benefits, no NHS, no free schools, if you don't earn you can't live. Europe is far too soft.

The main problem there, Muzzie, is that you're making up things to be angry about. To try to address your points:

1. We have every legal right to deport illegal immigrants and do so on a regular basis. It's not always a simple matter, because some illegals surprisingly refuse to cooperate and won't, say, tell the authorities where they've come from. We can't just put them on a boat to "foreign", because the countries we're deporting them to want proof that they came from there in the first place and have a legal right of residence. Just like we do.

2. Illegal immigrants have no right to UK housing or benefits. We do put them in detention centres while we're finding out where they came from and waiting to deport them, where we do have to feed them otherwise they tend to die. Which is inconvenient, messy and expensive.

3. Some illegal immigrants claim asylum, which they're entitled to do under International Law (i.e. nothing to do with the EU or European Human Rights). Asylum seekers are generally housed in temporary accommodation and receive a small amount of benefits to live on; around £30/week, the majority of which is in the form of vouchers which can only be spent on approved items.

4. We used to have a very similar system to the one you describe in UAE, we called it "Victorian England", but we got better.

I'm not angry, you're confusing me with Brewster . I simply responded to your policy statement - real life actions are far far apart. Lets face it it's a small Island, Island meaning we should beable to control our borders efficiently and we don't / can't. Simple.

I don't believe that it's any better than Victorian England. In my mind we have technological improvements and a shed load more ineffective laws that have great potential but fall short.

As I've said above I'm not anti any race / religion and have been in most posts above on the side of ethnic minorities. You seem to be trying to give a polar opposite view of some comments, I was putting in my view and understanding as you are.

Back OT - I wish they'd stop the minute by minute break down, video clips and sesationalist reporting. A man and family have suffered a great tragidy, I find it most disrespectful plaster these images everywhere. Starting to feel like it's being done as part of the ratings war, not for information.

A bit like Boston the other week; media feeding frenzy.

Totally - it makes me sick. No respect for the injured party, instead just over sesationalising for views / reads and making everything that bit worse.

I think it's only going to become more common, in teh short term at least.

The feeding frenzy is due to Media teams competing with Twitter and other social networks. It will only get worse too

This is quite interesting

The morals of the modern media is at an all time low.

I have only scanned that article, as I am at work, but I failed to see anything wrong with it? Am I missing your point?

We're an island nation which receives thousands of flights, boats, trains and motor vehicles from all over the world every day. We also have a huge tourism industry - it makes up about 10% of the UK's economy - which is totally reliant on letting people who aren't British into Britain.

With all of that simply being surrounded by water is pretty irrelevant.



Generally when people compare Victorian and modern times availability of iPads isn't one of the metrics they use. Instead they tend to go with trivial figures like infant mortality, poverty levels (especially child poverty), life expectancy, social mobility, homelessness, levels of preventable diseases, public health risks, care of the elderly and disabled, adult literacy levels etc., etc.

We tend to kick Victorian butt on all of those things (as well as having more iPads) and they're all the consequence of the social support networks that we have in place. To suggest getting rid of them because you have a nagging feeling that filthy foreigners are taking advantage really is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You and me both.

Ah yes, a return to Victorian values.

Y'know, those Victorians who wouldn't give women the vote, and *raised* the age of consent to thirteen...

I'm all for a return to Victorian values, in as much as I'm happy to pay tuppence for a pint

Yes totally missing it, but then often people on here look for wrongs or to pick fights / antagonise. I said the article was interesting, so why would there be anything wrong with it? It is interesting.

It was the bit about the morals of the modern media - I assumed that was directly related to the article.

Ipads - come on??? I was on about medicle care, cars and the like. It was a comment on society - as a society we'd be better of as Victorians, with Victorian values. (Not all I hasten to add certain ones regarding slavery and pre bra burning are not good).

Nope, it explains why Muslim nutters are nutters and why they refuse to intergrate, written by an ex muslim nutter that saw the light. It really is insightful even if it is a top level view.

You claimed that "the morals of the modern media were at an all time low".
I took that to mean you did indeed think there was something wrong with it. It's an odd turn of phrase otherwise.

Ah now I understand - The link and teh comment were unconnected, should have made that clearer. Appologies.

I have my own views on things like this, which I'll keep to myself as usual, but I just have a quick question, to which there's probably a simple answer, but:

Why, when this first happened, whether live or not, every graphic detail was shown?
Now, over the last day or two, the instruments used, the dead soldier, etc, are all being blurred out. Why, when most people now know what happened and have already seen the uncensored images and videos?