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Guy Croft Head Work #91926
10/04/2006 20:48
10/04/2006 20:48
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline OP
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Recieved an email from Guy Croft showing an update on my headwork, with some pictures of results on the flow bench and what has been done to get the results like this. Makes for quite interesting reading / understanding as most companies you wont get this when asking them for head work, just purely its done and hope that the work that has been done to a suitable standard and you achieve good results from it.

Inlet manifold
Quote:

Marking out inlet man to same dims as head which is at 157.6 cfm at 10” depression on port 3. This dev port has no guides, rough fettled finish to shape, no seat work, so std valve throat angles and diameters.




Inlet manifold flow results
Quote:

Difference after flow correction on one inlet man port. The manifold underflowed development port 3 on the head by 157.6 – 141 cfm prior to mods. Now it outflows the head by 166 – 157.6 which is how it should be bearing in mind the ‘swan-neck’ shape is going to generate a significant loss. The duct shape and entry angle to the head have a a major bearing on how well the manifold will perform when actually offered up to the head.




Inlet manifold skimmed
Quote:

When a manifold or port goes from from one section (eg round to semi-rectangular) there are always going to be problems with the airstream around the change of shape. The internal form needs to be carefully developed to prevent extreme turbulence. In other words what ‘looks right’ is not always so. There is one aerofoil shape that ‘works’, and one only, anything else will lead to flow loss. In general the internal shape of this manifold, whilst too small at exit section (to about 1” in) is very good.




Entry Section
Quote:

Entry section modified. Finish is 80 grit.




Non modified vs modified
Quote:

Non-mod man port left on dev port 3, showing loss generated on head compared with fully developed manifold port at right.




Loss of up and over shape
Quote:

The loss is an inescapable function of the ‘up and over’ shape of the manifold. A loss is a loss whether the engine is n/a or turbo.




Different manifold mismatch
Quote:

The GC straight 16v manifold (for throttle bodies) bolted straight up to dev port 3, there is a downstream mismatch which looks huge.




GC throttle bodies manifold comparison
Quote:

But in fact the loss is only 1 cfm, which is nothing in real terms. This demonstrates (for one thing) how the penalty of a mismatch is so often overstated. In practice a downstream mismatch has to be about 3mm over 1/3 of the port face area to be functionally significant on a port of this size. An upstream mismatch makes no difference at all, provided that the inlet manifold outflows the head (which is usually doesn’t..)
The other thing this demonstrates is how important it is to get line of sight into the port at the right angle.




Air stream
Quote:

The airstream is quite laminar straight down the middle. The string is picked up by the fastest flowing air.




Air stream 2
Quote:

The airstream doesn’t follow the port roof, it breaks away and heads for the centre/rear of the valve region. Again not how stable the airstream is.




Port Flow
Quote:

Flow across the port flow is quite slow, ie: a low flow region, but stable going over the ramp into the short side radius.




Least resistance
Quote:

Down the side the flow is similarly quite stable, note how it does not follow the port wall contour but follows the line of ‘least resistance’.




Vortex
Quote:

Not easy to capture on a static shot, but roughly in the centre of the port at the port face there is a vortex region of turbulent air where mixing of air coming from all directions is taking place. The end of the trace is fluttering violently and rotating in the vortex. If it were possible to get rid of the vortex, the manifold loss would be far less. But it’s not.




Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91927
10/04/2006 21:21
10/04/2006 21:21
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Is my head gas flowed? because there was a LOT of stuff skimming straight over the top of it as I was reading that post



Coopless!
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91928
10/04/2006 21:29
10/04/2006 21:29
Joined: Dec 2005
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Good stuff Begbie, how long before its all back together ?

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91929
10/04/2006 21:53
10/04/2006 21:53

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Very interesting post Begbie, thanks

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91930
10/04/2006 21:57
10/04/2006 21:57

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Lots of techno babble there to baffle us with but does it actually work

John

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91931
10/04/2006 21:57
10/04/2006 21:57

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Thanks Begbie, very interesting

[Head in hands annoyed that my jobs not that interesting ]

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91932
10/04/2006 21:59
10/04/2006 21:59
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Quote:

Lots of techno babble there to baffle us with but does it actually work

John




Well more air entering the engine for less boost, yes it will. Just goes to show that to get more reliable power it's not always best to just crank the boost up and hope it will be all good. It also goes to show how restrictive the standard head / inlet manifold can be


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91933
10/04/2006 21:59
10/04/2006 21:59

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Nice one Begbie. now get a move on + get the car back on the road and stop teasing everyone!

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91934
11/04/2006 02:10
11/04/2006 02:10

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How much did all that cost Begbie? and do they match the exhaust manifold as well? Or is it a bad idea to port the exhaust manifold as it causes weaknesses?

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91935
11/04/2006 03:18
11/04/2006 03:18

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So what car is this for as in the pictures there is some writing saying `pug 205` & `zetec 1800`

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91936
11/04/2006 03:47
11/04/2006 03:47

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Its for a 4cylinder 16vturbo coupe

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91937
11/04/2006 14:41
11/04/2006 14:41

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when you see a flow-bench , you know that they're doing
serious work , because without one , there is absolutely
no way of knowing what effect the work has had , if any.

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91938
12/04/2006 03:23
12/04/2006 03:23

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Quote:

So what car is this for as in the pictures there is some writing saying `pug 205` & `zetec 1800`




the adaptors for the flow bench are based up a certain bore with is then used for cars with similar bores like the 1.9 205.

Beggars I can see where my next development will go - TBs on a GC straight run manifold for sure. It think you can see the mismatch in the sedici manifold clearly now. The coupe incidentally is a better fit OEM.

Blackbeast - a downstream step i.e smaller to bigger as on the exhaust side makes no difference, the the 16v exit port shape is sort of kidney shaped with cannot be matched to the exhaust port either way.

rich

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91939
14/04/2006 16:08
14/04/2006 16:08

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Fascinating stuff this.....

For anyone interested in the basics of thiskind of head work, there is a good overview in this months practical classics

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91940
14/04/2006 18:01
14/04/2006 18:01

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My tuner has told me that this guy is excellent as what he does; in fact he is one of the top guys in the UK but is on the very expensive side. But hey what’s money when you got quality.

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91941
14/04/2006 19:36
14/04/2006 19:36

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Guy Croft has got to be one of the best known and respected Fiat tuners around, regardless of cost. 15 years ago when I had a 131 he was the guy to go to, and he is still at the top of his game.

This is illustrated to a degree by the silly money his "Tuning Fiat and Lancia Twin Cams" book sells for, last few copies I've seen go up for sale have all gone for well over £100!

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91942
24/04/2006 21:40
24/04/2006 21:40
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline OP
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Just a few more pictures and a little bit more text to go with this

Head port 1
Head port 2
Head port 3
Head port 4
Head port 5
Head port 6
Head port 7

Quote:

Head is now ready for guides and seat work, fully flowed.

Flow test final spec on in/ex ports 3 (bare port, no guide only):

inlet 160.3 cfm @ 10", (139 standard), now with full spec in manifold 153 cfm
(loss reduced on final port tidy-up by 3 cfm, was 150 on last test).
To put a perpective on that, 152 cfm is easily enough to give 250 bhp 2 liter 16v normally aspirated - so you can imagine that turbocharged even with very low boost - power will be huge.

ex 125.5 cfm @ 10" (116 std)

E/I ratio with inlet man (ignoring guides as they cancel out anyhow) is 125.5/153 = 82% which is fine. (Sierra Cosworth has incredibly restrictive ex ports and gives only 65% tops in full race trim).

The standard inlet man/port ignoring guides again gives about 139 - 12cfm manifold loss = 127 cfm standard port flow, ex std is 116 cfm so std E/I ratio is about 91% which is way too high.




Also my cams have just arrived with Guy Croft too, hmmmmm.....


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91943
24/04/2006 21:44
24/04/2006 21:44

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Super.... keep it coming

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91944
24/04/2006 22:11
24/04/2006 22:11
Joined: Feb 2006
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What sort of power are you expecting to get when you've completed this project begbie? sounds like its gonna slow down the rotation of the earth!!


F****** b****** thing...
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91945
24/04/2006 22:17
24/04/2006 22:17
Joined: Dec 2005
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Begbie Offline OP
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Quote:

What sort of power are you expecting to get when you've completed this project begbie? sounds like its gonna slow down the rotation of the earth!!




Clicky

To keep up with my progress


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91946
24/04/2006 23:36
24/04/2006 23:36

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Looking good. I'm confused as to all this speak of port 3 though. Does he mean the inlet/exhaust ports for cylinder 3? Why is it causing problems, was there something wrong with it.

John

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91947
25/04/2006 03:21
25/04/2006 03:21

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John you dont test all ports, this was the devlopment port for bare port flow no guide or valve i.e. the max possible, and with the valve fitted at lifts above the curtain effect the head should meet bare port flow. Although the swan neck manifold causes some loss.

rich

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91948
25/04/2006 04:04
25/04/2006 04:04

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I didn't appreciate that they were being worked on one at a time. I thought they'd all be done in one go to a particular specification/pattern whatever you want to call it.

If you try something on the first port and it gives a detremental affect how can it be undone?

John

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91949
25/04/2006 04:11
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Cool. If I tip some STP into the fuel-hole wotsit will it be pretty much the same?

Yours hopefully...

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91950
25/04/2006 04:14
25/04/2006 04:14
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Guy croft - the guy gives good head (s)



Coopless!
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91951
25/04/2006 04:25
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Quote:

Guy croft - the guy gives good head (s)




Oh dearie me.

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91952
25/04/2006 16:00
25/04/2006 16:00

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well it cant really this is when a development head is really needed. But, I think Guy has enough experience with 16v not to worry about that. But say a 20vt then a test head maybe required, these can be cut to see how much metal there is between coolant galeries and the ports.

rich

Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91953
25/04/2006 16:15
25/04/2006 16:15

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Quote:

sounds like its gonna slow down the rotation of the earth!!





hahahah.

brilliant ... but thats Superman's job ...



good stuff begbie , hope to hear more.


Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91954
09/05/2006 17:57
09/05/2006 17:57
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline OP
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Head work still being done, but a couple more photo's including the first of their kind, race valve guides CNC'd instead of being honed down to fit

Trojan Race Guides
C&B Cams 1
C&B Cams 2


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Guy Croft Head Work #91955
09/05/2006 18:27
09/05/2006 18:27
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Castle Combe
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Must say this is all looking rather good...


[Linked Image]

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