Just to keep you guys up to date on the progress of this, Im not going to keep anything from you

I've been having some problems

The car cuts out at idle, there is no specific time on this and it doesnt happen at a particular temperature either, always at idle and whenever it wants to, it just just cuts out.

I called perfect Touch today and they are going to look at for me but it looks like Im traveling another 3hrs each way to get it sorted

A pity we cant just upload everything in the ECU to a bin file and send it them and the software pickout the problem bits or have some form of time stamp on them as well so we can highlight the areas of concern as i bet it will be fine on rolling day as always

Hope it goes well and sorts it self out for you Jimbo.

Has an ECU reset had no effect as mine has randomly done it in the past until the ecu as cleared.

Jimbo - mine does exactly the same, although it cuts out most of the time, not just SOME of the time.

However, mine is down to the Unichip - is yours live-mapped or are you still on your unichip?

Actually, its not my Unichips fault - its the ECU making changes to its base maps in accordance with the inputs its getting

Jimbo is IIRC on a mix of both from a previous fault...

Nigel, as KP said, I'm on a live map and unichip combination.
I do recall Rob saying something about the idle speed needing increasing slightly, maybe it needs a little more ?

KP, I'll try the ECU reset tomorrow and see if it cures it ?

Rob did the live map then fitted the unichip at the end, maybe the unichip is playing around with the map he created and screwing the idle up ?

Are there any sensors I can check or clean that might cause it ?

Jimbo - you won't be able to stop it - all of your sensors are fine.

What we think is happening is that the ECU "learning" function is doing what it's supposed to do - its taking signals and adjusting itself according to what it THINKS is happening.

In my case (and yours by the sound of it) it reckons its running rich at some point in the rev range, and it just keeps on pulling more and more fuel out. This is OK when its on throtlle and closed loop, as the lambda circuit adjusts the fuelling, but at tickover, it reverts to a base map, and if its pulled loads of fuel out, it will struggle to run.

On my car, when I pull to a standstill, the revs drop to about 1,000-1,200 for a second or two, then drop either to about 600 or more often, to zero.

Trying to stop the car stalling is quite a task - just touching the throttle won't do it (in fact trying to increase the revs usually encourages the stall) I have to "tickle" the throttle pedal with several very soft stabs and usually I can get the revs back up.

Its worst when trying to pull away - I often spend two or three seconds just trying to get the revs up enough to let me lift the clutch.

However - be VERY wary of an ECU reset - it will almost certainly run very rich for a day or so, until the ECU "learns" all over again. After cutting out about 15 times on the way to work this morning, I resest the ECU and my AFR meter was showing full rich for most of the 40 mile journey home. The car won't take much boost - it will hesitate and splutter at anything over 1 bar - just too much fuel going in.

Tomorrow, the car will be fine, as the ECU will have made its adjustments and will be close to what Perfect Touch intended. By Wednesday evenning, it will be starting to get fluffy in traffic, and by Friday morning it will be undriveable again

I've now had NINE mapping sessions on my car since fitting the 16VT injectors - all have been good for a few days, then they've slipped as the ECU screws the base maps. I've now travelled 2,500 miles, used about 100 gallons of fuel and spent about two grand on rolling road bills.

As some people have said - I should have gone straight for a Motec

I'm desperately hoping that Flea's setup is the final answer - fingers crossed.

Let me know how you get on Jimbo - sounds like we're in very similar situations

Hmmm, I dont have the pulling away problems or any other type of problem really, it doesn't even hunt for an idle,it stays rock solid at 750rpm.
I pull up to the lights or what ever, dip the clutch and stick it in neutral, it could do it straight away or it might wait 2 minutes or so but it just stops followed by a few clicks of a relay in the passenger foot well.

I cant see why my ECU should be trying to pull out fuel, Im on standard injectors and the map Rob did for the ECU wont be too different from a GTECII chip, I think it might be the unichip messing up the idle map or it just needs a faster idle speed setting up.

Oh and im sure Flea's car cuts out too

If it reverts to a base map for idling is there no way that this can be locked so it cant be altred by the ecu at all?

If perfect touch can get this live mapping done spot on then would there be benefit for people to go to wideband lambdas if the ecu can pull the data and use it on the fly?

Please let me know the results as mines booked in on the 19th of december for either the unichip or live map.All though i havent got anything to loose at the moment as mines cutting out on idle now.Theres no routine to it sometimes when you pull up to lights it cuts out and the revs fluctuate on other times and then it cuts out.this is since i had the novitec chip and uprated fuel pump.I have altered the cable to idle at 1500 rpm at the mo thats the only way i can stop it cutting out.

I thought it went closed loop on idle and doesnt look at a map at all ? The MOT emissions test is done at idle and its using the lambda on closed loop then ?

If it does only use the Lambda then i would imagine it should be fine unless the lambda reading is way off or its not controlling the injector pulses properly and making them shorter than they should be??

Yeah, its all gone above my head

I'll leave it for Rob to sort out I think.

Wont serious tuning amplify any errors anyways?

Ross

Jimbo, as you say i don't think your problems are due to ecu learning as the unichip is only modifying your open loop fueling and timing. As I said to you earlier, I have had my car cutting out on idle every so often for the last 18 months especially if left to idle for a few minutes. There is no rhyme or reason and as it is so infrequent I never really worried, more of a quirk.

The problem with larger injectors is getting the lambda intervention to near zero. If the lambda is constantly having to pull the injectors i.e. by correcting +/- 15% to achieve stoich then the ecu struggles to compensate long term as it is fighting itself and the Unichip. As for my remapped ecu, well so far so good. The idle is perfect, throttle response is great so it's looking good... there should be no reason for any change as the lambda is not intervening beyond the standard parameters having matched the injectors accordingly i.e. pulse width and duration.

Yep I'm confused too, it must be something related to the map or unichip though as its only done it since it went in for that work to be done, nothing else has changed and the car has never missed a beat in the 2 years I've owned it?

Im sure it will be something silly and easy to fix.

Jimbo, yours is a weird one, as you say your map should not be much different to a Gtec/novitec map, and really the idle map isnt affected either.

Combined with runnign standard injectors, and there is no reason why your car should run any different to intended on idle, therefore you should not be getting any significant compensation of your other fuelling maps.

The problem with open loop adjustment really should only apply to using larger injectors and the standard ECU with/without a Unichip.

If you compensate for pulse width and timing ,there is no reason why your lambda values and variability should be near normal even with larger injectors, so no reason why any significant adjusmtent shoudl take place!

On a funny note,..after Flea mentioned his stalling problem a month ago, I was laughing by saying that it never happens to me!,..that night talking to a friend in the car, after 10 minutes..bang the car just stalled, no reason, was rock solid ,then died like taking the keys out!!..oh...how I laughed!

joe

Hi,

It should be like Joe explained. I changed OE injectors last weekend and since that my EGT has been as solid as a rock with the readings I saw Sunday, I can see them also today.
ECU hasn't changed anything .

- Jari -

If you don't have an encryption board in your ECU it might be easier for you to pop to mine and I can take your ECU map and burn you a new chip with a faster idle setting

Do Perfect Touch keep a copy of their maps? Perhaps they could post you out an ecu with a higher idle?

Jimbo, what was your idle set at? I'm booked in on Saturday, should I ask for idle to be set above 800rpm?

David, the idle seems perfect and it doesnt seem to be struggling with it, it just cuts out as if i've turned the engine off ?
I have no idea what they should set the idle at on your car to be honest.

o'h, ok - i misunderstood.

Im thinking of having this done as well,so i rung them up to find out more and they told me they can now run bigger injectors from the standard ecu, so i was thinking rather than pay to have it mapped then to decide to change injectors later, then pay more to map again to do it all at the same time, does this sound sensible? If so what are the best value injectors to go for, what do most people use??

If you buy different injectors then you must make sure they match the ECU. That means they must be high impedance in the range of 12-16.2ohms.
They must also match the fuel rail so must be a Bosch/Lucus/Weber type top feed fitment, not a Sard/Denso type fitment.

If you are not going to be pushing the best part of 380BHP it's pointless, and if you are then you also want to be thinking about so many other modifications that you are likely to need a remap anyway

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they must be high impedance in the range of 12-16.2ohms.
They must also match the fuel rail so must be a Bosch/Lucus/Weber type top feed fitment

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And the obvious question is:- do 16VT injectors meet all these requirements? (I'm pretty sure they meet the last bit, otherwise they wouldn't fit)

cheers for the advice JohnS, i just thought alot of people used 16v injectors as they are better flow, all this technical stuff goes over my head, i just want to make my car the best with the mods i have, and if i can add alittle some thing to optimise this ie injectors then i would. If there not going to make a difference then i wont bother, perhaps i will use the money to buy a new larger turbo as i have super spool at the mo, but started to get bored with it. Again turbos there is so many with gt on or R's on the end which one do i go for which will still give me good spool up.

yes 16VT injectors do meet all these requirements. Think they are 12 ohms

The spray pattern of the 20VT injectors is specific to the ports in that they spray directly into both inlet ports (split spray pattern), the 16VT also has a split spray pattern but the angle is different.
That means like-for-like if you do not need 16VT or larger injectors you're likely to make more power from 20VT injectors because the fuel atomisation will be superior as will your fuel efficiency

I wouldn't change from the stock injectors unless I had to personally. If they flow enough for your application then stick to them.

John

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I wouldn't change from the stock injectors unless I had to personally

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I wholeheartedly agree.

I spent a couple of weeks back on stock injectors after my boost controller failed and Perfect Touch decided the safest way was to revert almsot top standard.

The car was significantly smoother to drive and behaved perfectly in traffic. I could even pull away and change into second or even third gear without touching the throttle. It would even pull itself up modest hills at tickover.

Maybe Matt's twin injector setup is the way forward. standard 330cc injectors for most of the time, with second units kicking in when load dictates

Dont let Begbie here you say that Nigel as he will go off on one

your typical dual-rail system dates back to the days where injectors were not as advanced and control of them was not as advanced. It's pretty much unnecessary for us unless you want to run somewhere near 700BHP. Modern 750cc/min injectors are precise enough to return good economy and emissions as well as a reasonable idle speed.

As long as you want to stick with the stock ECU adding more injectors is a dodgy botch as you are removing control from the ECU (in the same way the Unichip is a mechanism for removing the control from the ECU)