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An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
#1594629
19/02/2017 20:02
19/02/2017 20:02
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568 Berlin
barnacle
OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
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Dear Mr Farage,
Congratulations on your success in 'giving us our country back' - some of us foolishly thought we already had it, but never mind; we were obviously mistaken.
It's been some months now since your victory.
Would it be perhaps impolite to ask when I might expect to see the benefits which were promised by your campaign? As far as I can see, the main effect of the exit vote was to demolish the value of my savings and my pension plan. I don't like to complain, but perhaps you would be so kind as to reimburse me for the hundred thousand quid or so by which my pension fund - on any international exchange - has been devalued.
I'm sure the similar increase in the cost of foreign holidays has been a mere courtesy detail, since of course no True Englishman[tm] would ever consider travelling further than Brighton.
I am told that the British economy is doing better than ever. This is hardly a surprise, given the laughably low exchange rates, but remarkably my salary has not increased in similar measure - so once again, my expenses are no longer matched by my income. Food has increased in price; vehicle fuel has increased in price; domestic power has increased in price - indeed, anything which is either imported or which relies on transport within the UK (let's see, that would be everything) has increased in price.
And perhaps you'd care to comment on the uncertainty regarding right of abode in this country (and similar reciprocal rights within the EU)? As someone with an EU-born partner, you will of course have considered these issues - but perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us? I'm sure you didn't intend that this situation would end up as a bargaining chip in negotiations, leaving an estimated three million people in limbo.
Regards,
Barnacle
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1594640
19/02/2017 21:04
19/02/2017 21:04
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831 Haslemere, Surrey
Mark_S
Forum is my job
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Forum is my job
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
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I think it was David Cameron, who gave us all the vote, rather than Farage. He obviously had the right idea as the majority agreed with him. At least he had the courage to stand up and say what he believed in. Agree with him or not, plenty of politicians just bend to the prevailing wind.
997 C4S
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1594656
20/02/2017 07:53
20/02/2017 07:53
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,783 In the coupe.
magooagain
Club Member 259
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Club Member 259
Forum is my life
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,783
In the coupe.
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I believe any investment when starting out comes with a warning that the rate of interest can fall as well as rise and the policy holder must be aware of this.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: magooagain]
#1594669
20/02/2017 10:02
20/02/2017 10:02
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831 Haslemere, Surrey
Mark_S
Forum is my job
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Forum is my job
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
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With a pension you need to take a long term view and have diversified investments, in 5-10 years Sterling may go the other way and then you will turn out a winner (for example if we manage Brexit well and EU implodes).
997 C4S
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1594694
20/02/2017 14:10
20/02/2017 14:10
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852 Cambridge & Cotswolds
MeanRedSpider
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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I think we're confusing cause and effect here. The effect is that the £ is devalued and there are many ways that could happen. The (main) cause in this instance is the Brexit vote. The effect was entirely predictable based upon the cause. Farage has taken credit for the cause so he should also take "credit" for the effect (whether you think it is good or bad). What I've already seen is that it is harder now for us (as a U.K. business) to attract talent from abroad because our salaries appear uncompetitive and, like it or not, talent from abroad always has financial obligations in their home country. From a professional point of view, I'm still struggling to see how we think control over our own regulations is going to help us. The truth in consumer products is that we'll have to meet EU regs that are written specifically to disadvantage U.K. manufacturers because we will no longer be at the table to defend our interests - in exactly the same way that US and Chinese regs favour domestic producers. Writing our "own" regulations would be a nonsense. Still, more than half the country is obviously smarter than me so Brexit means Brexit. And jobs abroad pay much better now And UK property is much cheaper for the Chinese as are U.K. companies. This MUST be a Good Thing - No?
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1594728
20/02/2017 22:14
20/02/2017 22:14
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754 The South of the West
JonH
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754
The South of the West
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I voted to remove the UK - it was my opinion(and i'm happy to say it still is),but I respect others that differ on opinion from my own thought process. Except idiot former Prime Ministers.
..... With, or without, the issue of finally leaving the club I don't think it is particularly 100% correct to say that the doom merchants are right in saying everything that is going to bite the UK is all the fault of the majority choosing its destiny and returning to independance.
The debt and fragility that we are in now is the same place that we have been in for many years. Hidden extremely well by the corridors of power and corruption. And it is only the fact that the number crunchers can scapegoat the potential doom onto the majority of voters who have chosen to leave that the true state of the Nation is becoming public.
Historically & hypothetically , if the majority of voters ended up choosing to stay in the club then the cloak of deception would undoubtably continue for another 2-3 years before it really could not be hidden any further. And what we would be faced with then is a violent exit, not a democratic one. The other Countries that are undoubtably going to leave soon may not have the freedom to choose a democratic route.
Time to cut the losses and lick our wounds. Austerity is coming regardless. You could choose to face that and make things good again as best we can with everything already sold off including our forefathers assets, or you could choose to continue to live the false life and let your children/grandchildren pay for it instead. What a legacy to leave !!!!
No.199
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1594730
20/02/2017 22:21
20/02/2017 22:21
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TbirdX
Unregistered
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TbirdX
Unregistered
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There's also been an exponential rise in 'moaning' and 'whinging', up around 3000% at the last check I believe, so at least somethings on the up.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: ]
#1594845
22/02/2017 11:25
22/02/2017 11:25
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,072 South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,072
South Cambs
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Something that always depressed me about my home nation is the British glass half empty view of almost everything. No matter how better off we may have become as a nation we seem to fail to see it and just revel in our rose tinted glasses view of the past and bemoaning everything.
Yes, there are some significant issues in the UK and a lot of people feel left behind. But I am unaware how what we have done will fix any of those very real issues for those very real people. The whole break away argument seemed to rely on suggesting that anyone who felt disadvantaged would reap huge rewards by voting leave. Sadly if something looks too good to be true if so often is.
But as we Brits only ever appear to be truly happy when we're moaning, Brexit should bring years of happiness and contentment to us all, if only we can ignore the bitter realisation that we did it to ourselves.
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: Barmybob]
#1594877
22/02/2017 14:17
22/02/2017 14:17
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754 The South of the West
JonH
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754
The South of the West
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Brexit should bring years of happiness and contentment to us all, if only we can ignore the bitter realisation that we did it to ourselves.
I doubt if happiness and contentment will ensue any time soon - their is an awful lot of damage repair to do before we get to that stage. I've always resented what we did to ourselves in the 1974 referendum. And you can see from comments made, by Junckers and the like, that deep down the intense hatred towards the UK comes to the surface in droves. And we wanted to be in this false happy-clappy wealth depleting club ?
No.199
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1594928
23/02/2017 07:48
23/02/2017 07:48
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,466 Kent
Submariner
My job on the forum
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My job on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,466
Kent
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Dear Mr Farage,
Congratulations on your success in 'giving us our country back' - some of us foolishly thought we already had it, but never mind; we were obviously mistaken.
It's been some months now since your victory.
Would it be perhaps impolite to ask when I might expect to see the benefits which were promised by your campaign? As far as I can see, the main effect of the exit vote was to demolish the value of my savings and my pension plan. I don't like to complain, but perhaps you would be so kind as to reimburse me for the hundred thousand quid or so by which my pension fund - on any international exchange - has been devalued.
I'm sure the similar increase in the cost of foreign holidays has been a mere courtesy detail, since of course no True Englishman[tm] would ever consider travelling further than Brighton.
I am told that the British economy is doing better than ever. This is hardly a surprise, given the laughably low exchange rates, but remarkably my salary has not increased in similar measure - so once again, my expenses are no longer matched by my income. Food has increased in price; vehicle fuel has increased in price; domestic power has increased in price - indeed, anything which is either imported or which relies on transport within the UK (let's see, that would be everything) has increased in price.
And perhaps you'd care to comment on the uncertainty regarding right of abode in this country (and similar reciprocal rights within the EU)? As someone with an EU-born partner, you will of course have considered these issues - but perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us? I'm sure you didn't intend that this situation would end up as a bargaining chip in negotiations, leaving an estimated three million people in limbo.
Regards,
Barnacle I like it. It's all about the money. Whilst the idea of autonomy/supposed sovereignty for the UK was a great vote winning concept for Leave, it would appear that significant 'common people' fell for the verbiage and unaccountable promises and rhetoric the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove peddled. Whilst I understand the real outcomes and changes will take time to take shape given we have yet to even leave, I fear a lot of the hysterical flag waving polices and outcomes will never be realised. As for Cameron giving the citizen's the choice to stay or leave, my take is that it was undertaken because like his premiership it was a spineless decision so that the Tory Party could sort out it's own infighting and the fact that he and the Establishment believed the Leave would never win. If what the Tories are currently undertaking with the decimation and destruction of school funding/education, the NHS, Employment Laws, the Prison System, Elderly Care, Legal Aid etc the move from the EU and the ECJ will in my view exacerbate this decimation of what we valued in our country.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: Submariner]
#1594933
23/02/2017 09:51
23/02/2017 09:51
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754 The South of the West
JonH
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754
The South of the West
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it would appear that significant 'common people' fell for the verbiage and unaccountable promises and rhetoric the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove peddled.
If what the Tories are currently undertaking with the decimation and destruction of school funding/education, the NHS, Employment Laws, the Prison System, Elderly Care, Legal Aid etc the move from the EU and the ECJ will in my view exacerbate this decimation of what we valued in our country.
That's a very disturbing thing to suggest that those that who voted 'leave' have no ability to make a sound judgement call and just believe the 'spin' of the day. The inference would be that those voting to 'stay' are the only ones who have the ability to make a sound decision and all others should be discounted and ignored. In effect.... you are making your own 'spin' to rebel against democracy. The things that used to be valued in this Country are, I'm afraid, totally destroyed due to 40 years of our wealth going abroad and never to return. Its been held together with sticky tape for decades. And that is the reason why you will finally have cutbacks in this Country to our 20th century valued support system(s). And its extremely wrong to single out the Tories for the EU mistake that we've lived with. You are 'pigeon-holing' to the extreme. If you want people to really despise then just look across the House of Commons floor to the other party's. Conversely, there are good honest people on both sides also. " Sorry kids - we're going to have to cut back on school uniforms and we'll also have to eat porridge from now on because I've just had the family silver stolen from me right in front of my eyes. I watched them do it but couldn't fight it. " "" I hate you Dad !. Why should I have to be subjected to my future years suffering with great hardship and despair ? !! ""
" Because.. like I said... WE'VE BEEN ROBBED AND WE HAVE NO WEALTH LEFT........... AND YOU ARE GOING TO PAY FOR IT INSTEAD OF THE THIEVES THAT CAUSED ALL OF THIS. The monies gone.. and its not coming back ! "
No.199
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: JonH]
#1594937
23/02/2017 10:10
23/02/2017 10:10
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603
Corridor of Uncertainty
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it would appear that significant 'common people' fell for the verbiage and unaccountable promises and rhetoric the likes of Farage, Johnson and Gove peddled.
If what the Tories are currently undertaking with the decimation and destruction of school funding/education, the NHS, Employment Laws, the Prison System, Elderly Care, Legal Aid etc the move from the EU and the ECJ will in my view exacerbate this decimation of what we valued in our country.
That's a very disturbing thing to suggest that those that who voted 'leave' have no ability to make a sound judgement call and just believe the 'spin' of the day. The inference would be that those voting to 'stay' are the only ones who have the ability to make a sound decision and all others should be discounted and ignored. In effect.... you are making your own 'spin' to rebel against democracy. The things that used to be valued in this Country are, I'm afraid, totally destroyed due to 40 years of our wealth going abroad and never to return. Its been held together with sticky tape for decades. And that is the reason why you will finally have cutbacks in this Country to our 20th century valued support system(s). And its extremely wrong to single out the Tories for the EU mistake that we've lived with. You are 'pigeon-holing' to the extreme. If you want people to really despise then just look across the House of Commons floor to the other party's. Conversely, there are good honest people on both sides also. " Sorry kids - we're going to have to cut back on school uniforms and we'll also have to eat porridge from now on because I've just had the family silver stolen from me right in front of my eyes. I watched them do it but couldn't fight it. " "" I hate you Dad !. Why should I have to be subjected to my future years suffering with great hardship and despair ? !! ""
" Because.. like I said... WE'VE BEEN ROBBED AND WE HAVE NO WEALTH LEFT........... AND YOU ARE GOING TO PAY FOR IT INSTEAD OF THE THIEVES THAT CAUSED ALL OF THIS. The monies gone.. and its not coming back ! " Well, if you want to go back 40 years, why stop there? If you want to hark back to the "good old days", why not go back a little further (and really not much further), you'll find that a vast proportion of "our" wealth actually came from us stealing it wholesale from other nations, subjugating and oppressing their peoples in the process. WE are "the thieves that caused all this". Still, at least then we knew how to keep Johnny Foreigner in his place.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1594938
23/02/2017 10:22
23/02/2017 10:22
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754 The South of the West
JonH
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754
The South of the West
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Well, if you want to go back 40 years, why stop there? If you want to hark back to the "good old days", why not go back a little further (and really not much further), you'll find that a vast proportion of "our" wealth actually came from us stealing it wholesale from other nations, subjugating and oppressing their peoples in the process. WE are "the thieves that caused all this".
Still, at least then we knew how to keep Johnny Foreigner in his place.
I dont say 'the old days' were necessarily 'good'. And the days to come - they will have elements of good & bad in different forms from what we are currently used to I'm sure. Yes, even taking into account that history is only written by the Victors, your comment is undoubtedly valid on its historical note. Whether oppressing the Cornish whilst stealing tin, the workers in the Lancashire Mills, or oppressing those in Mauritius growing sugar cane. The centre of London does not have clean hands. I'm only stopping at 40 years because thats the relevant time for this topic (unless 23rd June 2016 is the only relevant time for this topic !)
Last edited by JonH; 23/02/2017 10:47.
No.199
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: JonH]
#1594940
23/02/2017 12:38
23/02/2017 12:38
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852 Cambridge & Cotswolds
MeanRedSpider
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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Well, if you want to go back 40 years, why stop there? If you want to hark back to the "good old days", why not go back a little further (and really not much further), you'll find that a vast proportion of "our" wealth actually came from us stealing it wholesale from other nations, subjugating and oppressing their peoples in the process. WE are "the thieves that caused all this".
Still, at least then we knew how to keep Johnny Foreigner in his place.
I dont say 'the old days' were necessarily 'good'. And the days to come - they will have elements of good & bad in different forms from what we are currently used to I'm sure. Yes, even taking into account that history is only written by the Victors, your comment is undoubtedly valid on its historical note. Whether oppressing the Cornish whilst stealing tin, the workers in the Lancashire Mills, or oppressing those in Mauritius growing sugar cane. The centre of London does not have clean hands. I'm only stopping at 40 years because thats the relevant time for this topic (unless 23rd June 2016 is the only relevant time for this topic !) Love the idea that London was the centre of this. Just take a look at the centre of Glasgow or Newcastle (as examples) - HUGE wealth off the back of the empire and slave trade.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: MeanRedSpider]
#1594952
23/02/2017 14:15
23/02/2017 14:15
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,863 Auld Reekie
Edinburgh
Club President, member225
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Club President, member225
Forum veteran
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,863
Auld Reekie
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Fair point MRS, but then who is "not" guilty? All European countries, even diminutive Belgium, got in on the act of plundering the world's resources. And them Romans....well Oh and the Greeks and Phoenicians
BumbleBee carer
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: MeanRedSpider]
#1594957
23/02/2017 15:21
23/02/2017 15:21
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,071 Chertsey in the Thames
bockers
Hon Club Member 007
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Hon Club Member 007
Forum Fossil
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,071
Chertsey in the Thames
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Love the idea that London was the centre of this. Just take a look at the centre of Glasgow or Newcastle (as examples) - HUGE wealth off the back of the empire and slave trade. Liverpool was a major slave trade Hub in the UK, some of the carvings on the Liver building attest to this.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1594969
23/02/2017 17:12
23/02/2017 17:12
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,466 Kent
Submariner
My job on the forum
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My job on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,466
Kent
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Indeed Jim, perhaps JonH you could specifically state what your actual issue/s are with the EU that has led to the conclusions you have come to, post 1974? Some of your accusations and your interpretations you have made about what I wrote are incorrect and appear to be bent to the mantra you wish to propagate.
Last edited by Submariner; 23/02/2017 17:18.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1596080
08/03/2017 17:51
08/03/2017 17:51
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754 The South of the West
JonH
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 754
The South of the West
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? Some of your accusations and your interpretations you have made about what I wrote are incorrect and appear to be bent to the mantra you wish to propagate. Not ignored the site - Ive been away. The only point I wish to make about 'what you wrote' is that its pretty damning against the significant 'common people', who you imply are effectively thick, and without any capability for rationale thought. And therefore will make/have made the wrong choice. In effect I could perhaps say that your writings have bent your thoughts and (non factual) statements towards the mantra to which you desire. You've 'dissed' the outies, and branded them all, without a moments thought. Above all though it is absolutely important that you be allowed to have your own thoughts, and I be allowed to have my own thoughts, in this journey of life. Even if I would disagree with you, it doesn't mean you should be suppressed. Differences of opinion and dialogue and rationality normally make for a better end result if both parties are willing to be adult. Time will tell if the European Club members (UK included at the moment) are willing to be adult. Peace.
No.199
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1596081
08/03/2017 18:28
08/03/2017 18:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568 Berlin
barnacle
OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
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I'm pretty certain that many of the people who voted - on both sides - did their best to inform themselves on the issues, considered their evidence, and decided on that basis. That they decided other than I did, or other than you did, is in that case simply that they have different priorities and therefore arrive at a different result.
Which is all well and good.
However, I strongly suspect - from both previous observation of election results, and from interviews and surveys taken since the event - that the majority of people on *both* sides voted largely on tribal grounds: we vote that way because the paper we read and the TV we watch and the websites we visit tell us that that's the way to vote. People voted on a single issue without considering the ancillary effects (some of which I listed in my initial post, though that list is by no means complete). Even today, we have the delight of watching pro-exit newspapers excoriating the members of the House of Lords for exercising the very rights *for which those same papers* claimed should be 'returned' somehow from Europe.
And the biggest joke of all? If this country wants to trade with the EU, it will have to have many of the same laws as already exist, simply to meet the industrial standards required to allow goods and services into the EU.
I think this rush to leave the EU has been significantly manipulated by a small number of people with axes to grind (and a lot of money to come to them); I think it is the most foolish thing this country has done in years; and I further believe that it will take *years* before the country recovers from the damage caused by it, and the likes of you and I see significant benefit as a result of it. It may never happen.
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Re: An open letter to Mr Farage and his apologists
[Re: barnacle]
#1596099
08/03/2017 22:19
08/03/2017 22:19
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Enforcer
Unregistered
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Enforcer
Unregistered
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I expect my pension pot to have to last me for between forty and fifty years after I retire, DHR, given current life expectancies, my family history, and my doctor's advice. What?? Details, please!!
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