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Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
#1490515
26/05/2014 22:38
26/05/2014 22:38
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14 Poland
PabLO20VT
OP
Newbie
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OP
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14
Poland
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With forged rods and pistons, new shaft, etc. I put the original new oil pump. I had disassembled the engine.
It makes sense to remove the balance shaft in 20VT? I saw on the forum that some users in the description of the car had a "Balance shaft remove".
It must be completely removed or just cut off the "fin" drive?
Crankshaft with pistons, connecting rods, pulleys, flywheel, etc. will be balanced.
GT2871r 0.86 CNC,3"DP&exhaust,FMIC,walbro 255&044,650ccm, EMU StandAlone,AEM ->411KM & 509Nm
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1491025
29/05/2014 19:32
29/05/2014 19:32
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549 Bulgaria
Ferrarist
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549
Bulgaria
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Removed mine, there is different opinions how wise is to use balancer shaft together with oil pump "train"..... Saw many 5 pot Alfa JTD engines that becomes quieter when balancer shaft removed.
20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1491028
29/05/2014 19:37
29/05/2014 19:37
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 225 london
lenzoferrari
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 225
london
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To be honest I would speak to barbz but iv never heard him say about removing it
Last edited by lenzoferrari; 29/05/2014 19:40.
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1491334
31/05/2014 21:51
31/05/2014 21:51
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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You can remove it because it is balanced to original weight of the rods and pistons. But I recommend additional balancing of the crank. Original crank is unbalanced with about 30g, adjusted to the balancer shaft in combination with the original rods/pistons. Fiat engineers did really much work in balancing complete engine. Juergen
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1491453
01/06/2014 20:30
01/06/2014 20:30
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nyssa7
Unregistered
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nyssa7
Unregistered
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I've been down the removal path as has someone I know not on this forum but who races a 20vt
Neither of us are currently racing with our engines, there are issues with the oilpump when the shaft is removed that leave lovely bits of metal flowing round the engine
Looks like I'm going to be investigating dry sumping, so more delays for me
My recommendation is leave it in
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: ]
#1491619
02/06/2014 16:38
02/06/2014 16:38
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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I've been down the removal path as has someone I know not on this forum but who races a 20vt
Neither of us are currently racing with our engines, there are issues with the oilpump when the shaft is removed that leave lovely bits of metal flowing round the engine
Looks like I'm going to be investigating dry sumping, so more delays for me
My recommendation is leave it in Can you explain me why?! This does not make any sense?! The oilpump drives the shaft with help of a chain, which has no load any more after removal of the shaft. Therefore the stress for the complete oilpump theoretically even becomes less?! I have no problems after removal and the people I know (with the same change) do not have any problems, too?! Where do the metal bits coming from?! Thank you Juergen
Last edited by Stichl; 02/06/2014 16:41.
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1491625
02/06/2014 16:53
02/06/2014 16:53
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 129 Zagreb, CRO
Jopa_zgd
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 129
Zagreb, CRO
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Stichl, how much RPM you turn your engine? How much KM have you done with balance shaft removed? little ot yours grale coop drives? I'm doing a dry sump conversion and removing balance shaft gives me much easier job but people here tells me not to remove it because the engine will become unstable in high rpms
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: Stichl]
#1491661
02/06/2014 20:26
02/06/2014 20:26
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nyssa7
Unregistered
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nyssa7
Unregistered
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If I could explain it to you, I would. To be fair, its not my engines that have suffered this, but someone else who's engine was built by same people at the time - and they have warned me of this
Quite possible none of my engines has ever lasted long enough to suffer!
I have engaged a new company to rebuild my car, they are looking at the oil pump design to see if they can understand the issue without me having to run it up and damage it
Maybe the other person has other issues they are blaming on the oil pump - I honestly don't know. But am pleased that you are not having any issues
Last edited by nyssa7; 02/06/2014 20:27.
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1492461
06/06/2014 13:21
06/06/2014 13:21
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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The harmonic imbalance on a 4 cyl remains the same throughout the rpm range whereas a 5 cyl engine has an imbalance that get progressively worse as the rpm rises, that's why 4 cyl engines are better ;-p
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: ]
#1494053
15/06/2014 18:57
15/06/2014 18:57
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 771 North Wales
Solouko
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 771
North Wales
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The harmonic imbalance on a 4 cyl remains the same throughout the rpm range whereas a 5 cyl engine has an imbalance that get progressively worse as the rpm rises, that's why 4 cyl engines are better ;-p And why 6 cylinders are better than 4cylinders and the smoothest engine ever made was a V12. I think volvo, fiat and VW audi are the only 3 companies that even make a 5 cylinder engine because they're so hard to balance.
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1494059
15/06/2014 19:59
15/06/2014 19:59
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549 Bulgaria
Ferrarist
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549
Bulgaria
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Porsche running V4 engine on LeMans and V4 engine is almost impossible to balance.....
20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1494350
16/06/2014 23:15
16/06/2014 23:15
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 771 North Wales
Solouko
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 771
North Wales
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I think single cylinder engines are harder, but that's the point of balance shafts, you can always stick a counterweight in there to smooth things out. but with a V engine you stick the shaft between the cylinders so it's at the center of mass, but on an inline engine it has to go on the side like the coop engine. Also, are you sure it's not a V Reihenmotor 4 cylinder configuration, a VR means that it's a staggered inline engine lettng you use only 2 camshafts for a DOHC V engine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR6_engineThis is how the cylinders are in the bently W2 and the bugatti W16, technically they should be called WR engines. The 5 cylinder engines that VW do are also VR5s derived from the VR6 used in the R32 golf. You cant put the balance shaft where you normally would on a VR type engine, it's got to go at the side, but on the WR type engines then it can go back in the middle. but then, they probalby balance well enough without them.
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Re: Balance shaft in 20VT - remove or not?
[Re: PabLO20VT]
#1494447
17/06/2014 19:30
17/06/2014 19:30
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Almost, v5 was dropped before the r32 engine was launched, you meant it was derived from the vr6 (2.9) of ye olde skool hot vw's.
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