Err....no, my opinion is nothing to do with the colour of his skin (unlike yours).

I defend him as he saw a dreadfully unfair political system and did something about changing it, then preached forgiveness and understanding, rather then retribution against those that inflicted that system upon his nation.

Yes, I'm absolutely convinced that the only reason anyone thinks Nelson Mandela was - on balance - a pretty positive influence, is the colour of his skin.

Can anyone else here sense a crushing irony?

Biggenz, I think you may have misunderstood - Oxfordsteve was not stating how he gleaned his understanding but encouraging another to find out more.

Oxfordsteve, it is no less unfair to Biggenz to say in return that his opinion is based upon the colour of anyone's skin.

You can disagree with each other, but please do it in an agreeable way.

The fact that you don't like him is enough for me.

The fact that he ruined a country for everyone, not just the whites, justifies my 'dislike' for him.

In case you haven't noticed, the majority of blacks in SA are far worse off now than they ever were under the evil white regime. Yes, they can say a few signs forbidding them to access certain areas have been removed and they are now 'free', but what else has improved for them?

I'd be delighted to hear, so please do say.

Well the fact that you left the country must be be a blessing for them all, white or black. So that's one positive he did for starters.

Pretty childish for a grown man, but as I thought, you don't have an answer.

I thank you.

You aren't interested in answers. It's the same with people who believe in conspiracy theories. They want and answer that proves their point and ignore all others. I, although being in a particularly childish mood today, can see why some might not like Mandela, and arguably his actions in his early years could be considered terrorism. But what he advocated, peaceful negotiation and reconciliation, has to be, and is, admired the world over by those of all colours and races.

Come on then, all you Mandela loving people, please list what he actually achieved in his term as president, and the legacy he left.

Show me where he made SA a better place.

They won the Rugby World Cup and then made a film about it. So Matt Damon's world probably got ever so slightly better.

One thing is certain, no change or "better place" is attainable in the twinkling of an eye, it takes at least a generation for major changes in society to begin to take effect.

You're maybe expecting too much too quickly whilst shrouded by your own evidently bitter experiences?

I wish it was that simple. Just look at Zimbabwe...

Yeah, what Zimbabwe needs is some good imperialists to rock up over there again and tell those locals how to live their lives....that'll work.

Why don't you try and say something useful for a change.

Are you seriously suggesting that on balance, life was better when much of the world was dominated by white imperialists?

I'm not suggesting it, it's a fact backed up by government figures.

OK. I guess you prove that old adage.....

Before this descends into "No, you're a smelly bum-face"...

A radical change in any country almost inevitably leads to a period where things get objectively worse, and the colour of the skins of the inhabitants is hardly a factor. Look at how Russia progressed after the revolution, or China after the great step forward, or how India has developed since the end of Imperialist rule.

So I wouldn't be so quick to denounce regression in South Africa. One thing that Nelson Mandela has undoubtedly done is shown black South Africans that they need not be 2nd class citizens, that they can be respected on the world-stage and, most importantly, that they can be masters of their own destiny.

He has planted seeds in his own country - men and women who are aspiring to follow his lead and to make their country better for everybody who lives there. Their success will be his legacy.

Apart from, that's not what's happening. The now black government introduced measures like affirmative action and BEE where uneducated, inadequate blacks get preference when it comes to new, highly skilled jobs, and any person of any other colour than black(not just whites) has to take a back seat even if he's qualified to the highest degree.

Or how about the fact that you are forced by government to not only employ, but give share of your company to a certain percentage of blacks, irrespective of whether they are qualified or not.

Or how about the fact that in the companies who support BEE, whites are categorically not allowed to invest. And with some it's just plain company policy not to employ any whites at all.

How is that not totally racist?

I can assure you, no amount of time will heal a backwards regime like that where the black majority gets handed everything as they are either not capable or willing to work for what they want.

And of course, the government (SA or elsewhere in the world) never spins the facts to make themselves look good.

I'm talking about figures supplied by the current government. You can't ask for much fairer than that.

Whilst I fall somewhere in the middle on Mandela you can't argue that when white people were running the agriculture of Zimbabwe people weren't starving while fields stood fallow. It's all very well running the nasty, imperialist white people out of Zimbabwe because it's "unfair" that they owned the land and not the black locals, but it's pretty idiotic to do so when they aren't capable of running a farm and feeding their own.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you expect to enslave a people for decades and then for unbridled gratitude to be their only response when you lifted the yolk?

Under apartheid you gave blacks the worst houses, the worst jobs and the worst education, you can't now complain that they're unskilled and uneducated.

The problem is self-correcting, because educational standards will improve and better educated blacks will move into the skilled jobs. It might take a while and may involve some pain, but it will happen. Hey, it's still doing better than China (where 20m+ people starved to death) and while the system corrects itself whites have to reap what they sowed.

Thank you for pointing that out. Yes we did give blacks houses, and yes we gave them jobs and we also gave them education! Not only that, but we also gave them their own home states where they were free to progress as they wished, with funding from the evil white government!

And what did they do with it? Nothing.

Now what do they have under their brilliant black government?

No houses, no jobs and no education.

Biggenz, do you fundamentally believe that whites are superior to blacks?

I don't think that anyone should equate Mugabe's version of democracy and Mandella's, but in both countries, as in much of Africa, it comes down to tribalism as much as skin colour.

The apartheid era was dominated by a sub-set of the white tribe who probably are no more and no less racist than any other African tribe.

I was unfortunate enough to have had to visit apartheid era South Africa. it wasn't a particularly happy place then, even for a non-resident white.
I can well understand why the regime was hated by the majority of its inhabitants. No doubt an Afrikaaner would have had a different view.

Do you fundamentally believe that Mandela was a saint?

By the way, this has nothing to do with my 'opinion'. It's all about cold hard facts.

Yes, and plantation owners gave their slaves accomodation, jobs and food - doesn't make them any less despicable though, does it?



Wow, the white government gave them land, in their own country, and a tiny share of the money from their own labours. It's hard to believe that anybody black voted for Mandela.

As always, you're still avoiding the crux of the matter. Is SA a better place now with black rule for the black majority?

If yes, please provide proof.