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First Aid and the UK.
#1302687
04/01/2012 18:03
04/01/2012 18:03
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
OP
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OP
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Posts: 16,603
Corridor of Uncertainty
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Apologies if I'm repeating myself, but I can't find the post if I did already say this and Christmas has wiped out what remained of my memory... Anyway, last December I finally managed to get myself on a one-day "First Aid in the Workplace" course run by the Red Cross in Cambridge. I've wanted to do this for years and although what you can learn in a day is obviously miniscule, I now at least feel confident that I could do what is advocated in this campaign featuring Vinnie Jones being promoted by the British Heart Foundation. We learned quite a lot of other stuff (about burns, shock, poisoning, etc) designed to keep someone alive until the professionals arrive - which is literally all First Aid is about. What amazes me is this: I'm 46 and regard myself as at least minimally public-spirited and yet it's taken me all this time to learn even the most meagre life-saving skills. In France, my daughters (aged 13 and 15 at the time) have both been on 5-day full-time courses and there is a defibrillator on the wall of practically every Mairie in every village in the country. Question: Why don't we make first aid courses compulsory in schools? From the start of secondary school, imagine what we could enable future generations to do. Even if only one in ten kids takes it in, that still means eventually 10% of the population would be able to help you or me or our neighbour or uncle if they suffer some kind of incident. Surely it's got to be worth the investment?
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jimbo]
#1302746
04/01/2012 19:54
04/01/2012 19:54
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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Probably because it's now a generation of blame and claim where you end up with a legal battle if your first aid attempt goes wrong.
Sad as it sounds but it's happens!
Nothing new, Jimbo. We were advised while serving in Germany not to give FA to civvies (German or "Auslanders"), due to the possibility/probability of being held liable for causing further injury or death to the injured person.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1302791
04/01/2012 21:43
04/01/2012 21:43
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DanielTheManual
Unregistered
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DanielTheManual
Unregistered
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Probably the same reason other useful information isn't taught at school, like pensions, mortgages/renting, debt, how to use a fire extinguisher, road safety...the list goes on.
Instead we are taught numerous of things we don't end up using later in life, and I question whether it was actually required. Although the odd question relating to the Periodic table does come up in pub quizzes.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1302950
05/01/2012 11:37
05/01/2012 11:37
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AlanC
Unregistered
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AlanC
Unregistered
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I agree that everyone should be at least FA trained to a basic level. On monday I heared my wife scream for me. Went running into back room. She was holding our 3 year old daughter. She had stopped breathing. She had gone blue around her mouth and grey on her face. The wife has trained in first aid. The eldest lad was there with her. He is a lofeguard, and has saved a few people in the past. He went to bits as it was his sister. It was down to me to revive her. Luckily I have worked in H&S before. Not done a FA course before, but had an idea from videos I have shown in the past. Without this there is a good chance we would have lost our little girl. It has been put down to her having a Febrile convulsion through a very high temperature, and being sick at the same time blocking her airways. She was running around as though nothing had happened less than 24 hours later. It has shown me that we need as many trained as we can as we don't know how we will react until needed.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1302976
05/01/2012 13:16
05/01/2012 13:16
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Pinnin
Unregistered
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Pinnin
Unregistered
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Glad your little one is well Alan - well done.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1302979
05/01/2012 13:25
05/01/2012 13:25
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,704 Harpenden
sugerbear
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,704
Harpenden
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Surely it's got to be worth the investment?
Investment = expense. So it wont in school anytime soon, at least not on a national basis. I trained with my swimming club to be a lifeguard (and to complete in competitive lifeguard competitions). My dad took me took the swimming club and he encouraged me to join the lifeguard part of the club. If you want your children to be able to save your life (and vice versa) then its worth the investment of your time to get them trained. Leave it up to someone else and it will never. To this day I am grateful that I have never needed or been required save someones life. But I could if I needed to.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: sugerbear]
#1302992
05/01/2012 13:43
05/01/2012 13:43
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proccy
Unregistered
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proccy
Unregistered
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Our Company does extensive training with St. Johns or Red Cross on the 3 day course, renewable every 2 or 3 years. We're currently offering 12 places in our area between some 500 employees - currently can't fill all the places because people either; a/ Can't be arsed b/ Couldn't cope with other people's injuries/blood etc c/ Don't want the responsibility Sad times i'm afraid
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1302995
05/01/2012 13:47
05/01/2012 13:47
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proccy
Unregistered
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proccy
Unregistered
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One point i'd make about teaching FA in schools is, judging by the amount of coursework/homework my kids get, something else would have to suffer to fit it in.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: ]
#1303052
05/01/2012 15:36
05/01/2012 15:36
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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Our Company does extensive training with St. Johns or Red Cross on the 3 day course, renewable every 2 or 3 years. We're currently offering 12 places in our area between some 500 employees - currently can't fill all the places because people either; a/ Can't be arsed b/ Couldn't cope with other people's injuries/blood etc c/ Don't want the responsibility d/ There's no extra money for doing itSad times i'm afraid Added one we often get when offering FA courses.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: sugerbear]
#1303061
05/01/2012 15:58
05/01/2012 15:58
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
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Personally I think the "I wont do it 'cause I will get sued" excuse is just a poor excuse for being too lazy/selfish to help. Yes and no SB, given the endless reams of red tape and possibilities where an an individual can find themselves in a situation where they might be sued, caution is actually quite sensible. Not for a second would I not try and help someone who had taken ill or been hurt - and nor would most people, but sadly times have changed from when the school nurse could give you a cuddle and kiss your grazed knee better. He/she is probably not even allowed to touch a child these days let alone shock of all horrors plant a kiss on one. Must make diagnosis tricky to say the least... I agree that it's a skill I'll be happy never to be called upon to use, but I debate whether it would be prohibitively expensive to teach first aid in schools. Much of the equipment and expertise is available already and I'd have thought it's something that central government would be more likely to fund than other subjects. Agree 100% Maybe instead of 'teaching' children the wonder and delights of religion in RE lessons, instead they should be taught basic first aid. Seems a pretty sane decision - after all, we wouldnt want the future residents of this country having a dilemna as to which option to choose in able to help someone who has been injured - pray, or offer basic first aid.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1303068
05/01/2012 16:28
05/01/2012 16:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,704 Harpenden
sugerbear
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,704
Harpenden
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I actually think the french law of failing to help would be an excellent idea.
As for being worried that injurylawyers4u might sue me because I attempted to save somebody's life and failed. All I can say is bring it on !
Part of our course did cover things like
"what if I do chest compression and it breaks a rib" - tough on the person, better a cracked rib than being dead. Your job is to keep them going until someone professionally trained arrives.
OR
"what if there is a possible neck injury and the person isn't breathing/isn't a pulse" - same again, as much as it might be bad that you cause further damage, better to have them alive than dead.
OR
"a person is clinging to an upturned boat 500 yards out in a storm force gale, do you attempt to swim to them and perform a rescue" - No, call the police.
etc etc etc
In all cases, you assess the risk to yourself, then to the person you are trying to help and then decide your action. No court in the land is going to convict you if you have acted to help someone.
If I do something like attempting open heart surgery after seeing an episode of Holby City then I would expect to be spending some leisure time at her majesty's pleasure.
I cant think of anything that isn't pretty much black and white when it comes to first aid.
Last edited by sugerbear; 05/01/2012 16:29.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Roadking]
#1303080
05/01/2012 17:06
05/01/2012 17:06
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568 Berlin
barnacle
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
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d/ There's no extra money for doing it.
Oddly enough, we used to get a hundred quid a year 'bonus' for being qualified first aiders. Taxed and NI'd, naturally.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: barnacle]
#1303083
05/01/2012 17:20
05/01/2012 17:20
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DanielTheManual
Unregistered
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DanielTheManual
Unregistered
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d/ There's no extra money for doing it.
Oddly enough, we used to get a hundred quid a year 'bonus' for being qualified first aiders. Taxed and NI'd, naturally. We get a fiver a week
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: barnacle]
#1303087
05/01/2012 17:30
05/01/2012 17:30
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proccy
Unregistered
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proccy
Unregistered
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d/ There's no extra money for doing it.
Oddly enough, we used to get a hundred quid a year 'bonus' for being qualified first aiders. Taxed and NI'd, naturally. Ours do too
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1303118
05/01/2012 18:35
05/01/2012 18:35
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Lezza
Unregistered
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Lezza
Unregistered
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I work in the local college and the staff that are first aid trained get a different rate per hour than the rest of us staff and in my opinion so they should, they do a great job. But at the moment we are struggling to get more new staff trained up because like you say it's the blame game, staff these days are worried about the trouble they could find themselves in should something go wrong, or in are college the staff just don't want the hassle of having to deal with teenagers that are abusive, rude and violent, all for an extra £1 per hour! In theory its a great idea as is sigh language in primary schools but untill people feel they can help without the blame game I dont think much will happen.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: ]
#1303133
05/01/2012 19:08
05/01/2012 19:08
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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Our designated FAs get paid a bonus on qualifying/re-qualifying. We offer courses FoC to all employees as we have our own Instructors and Assessors, some don't see why they should "because there's no extra money". The course is offered for their own benefit, apparently we should pay them for it anyway.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1303322
06/01/2012 03:33
06/01/2012 03:33
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,521 Aldershot
PeteP
Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary
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Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary
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Posts: 21,521
Aldershot
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Back in the days when I was at sea we had to have first aid qualifications as part of getting our 2nd mate's tickets.
Not surprising really considering that cargo ships didn't carry doctors, there's no ambulance service deep sea and it was generally accepted as being one of the most dangerous jobs you could do.
16VT and X1/9 1500
We must all do our part for the planet. I unplugged a row of electric cars that nobody was using.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1304303
09/01/2012 09:49
09/01/2012 09:49
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 479 Northampton
srm6
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 479
Northampton
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srm6 - well, I'm very pleased - if surprised - to hear you were given first aid tuition at school. Was it a single school initiative or LEA wide? No idea if I'm honest (was only 9 or 10 at the time), although I mentioned this to my wife and she had a similar course so it may have been Northampton-wide? Having said that, saw an advert over the weekend saying that now you are only supposed to do the chest compressions to revive someone so half of what was covered is apparently 'wrong' now?!
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: srm6]
#1304308
09/01/2012 10:11
09/01/2012 10:11
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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Not wrong I think they are trying to make it easier, and overcome some fears about "kissing" someone who may have HIV. Worryingly I recently read a book (Blood, Sweat and Tea by Tom Reynolds*) written by a paramedic who stated that your chances of survival after a heart attack are pretty slim, even if the paramedics get there. Apparently Holby City et al have given the public an overly optimistic view of heart attacks.. *Looking on Amazon, it would seem that the C4 series Sirens was based on his books.
Last edited by Roadking; 09/01/2012 10:16.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1304328
09/01/2012 11:29
09/01/2012 11:29
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DanielTheManual
Unregistered
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DanielTheManual
Unregistered
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You are unlikely to survive your heart stopping unless someone uses an AED (defibrillator). Something like every minute until you use one, the chance of survival goes down 10%.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Roadking]
#1304364
09/01/2012 13:35
09/01/2012 13:35
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122 Cumbria
stan
Dr. Frankenstan
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Dr. Frankenstan
Forum Demigod
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
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Not wrong I think they are trying to make it easier, and overcome some fears about "kissing" someone who may have HIV. Worryingly I recently read a book (Blood, Sweat and Tea by Tom Reynolds*) written by a paramedic who stated that your chances of survival after a heart attack are pretty slim, even if the paramedics get there. Apparently Holby City et al have given the public an overly optimistic view of heart attacks.. *Looking on Amazon, it would seem that the C4 series Sirens was based on his books. When I trained (and then worked) in A&E our success rate was 20% for casualties admitted via ambulance and *only* 28% for "witnessed" arrests within the hospital environment, and that was considered the norm. Television shows have given a very rosy picture of survival whether within or outside the hospital environment, although that is not to say it isn't worth trying in case you happen to strike lucky and get one of the 20%. I've had a couple of those, one of the most memorable being where it was 45 minutes before assistance arrived and trust me, that is a *long* time to keep up full-blown CPR......I nearly needed it myself afterwards!
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: stan]
#1304397
09/01/2012 15:07
09/01/2012 15:07
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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When I trained (and then worked) in A&E our success rate was 20% for casualties admitted via ambulance and *only* 28% for "witnessed" arrests within the hospital environment, and that was considered the norm. Television shows have given a very rosy picture of survival whether within or outside the hospital environment, although that is not to say it isn't worth trying in case you happen to strike lucky and get one of the 20%. I've had a couple of those, one of the most memorable being where it was 45 minutes before assistance arrived and trust me, that is a *long* time to keep up full-blown CPR......I nearly needed it myself afterwards! Pretty much what TR said in his books. Well worth a read, light reading as they're based on his blogs, but it's staggering the misuse and abuse the general public heap on the Ambulance and A&E services. Reading the books, I couldn't help feeling some people should lose the right of access to an Ambulance or indeed the NHS. The end result could only be a reduction in the less worthy (as selected by RK) elements of society.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1304401
09/01/2012 15:21
09/01/2012 15:21
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122 Cumbria
stan
Dr. Frankenstan
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Dr. Frankenstan
Forum Demigod
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
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Slewing off topic further, sorry J_C, but the things that used to bug me about BBC's "Casualty" was that they didn't show things like the *same* attempted suicide victim coming in every three days (common occurrence), the twenty sprained ankles (especially on Saturday nights when girls, predominantly, tried to dance in high heels) each shift, note not per day, per shift! They didn't show the "day after Giro day" when people would try to get admitted because they'd boozed up all their money and needed food/shelter! They also didn't show the routine violence directed towards the staff, again on a daily basis, nor did they seem to show the hundreds of attendees that were coming in because they couldn't be bothered to see (or didn't believe)their own GP. I'll never forget taking the history of one admission who ran through a list symptoms ranging from hair-loss to teeth falling out, severe abdo pain, bleeding gums, chest pain (a red flag, meaning you couldn't turn them away), headaches, blurred vision etc etc etc and when I asked two questions it all fell into place; "How long have you had these symptoms", answer "Forty years!" followed by "Has your GP given you anything for this?" to which he replied with the name of a well-known anti-psychotic drug! At least it gave me something to laugh about!
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1304426
09/01/2012 16:22
09/01/2012 16:22
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jim3
Unregistered
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jim3
Unregistered
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I worked in A&E for 6 months.
I gradually lost all faith in society dealing with endless streams of drunks, drug users, "suicide attempts" and assaults. I became bitter and incredibly cold-hearted towards patients, which troubled me. I was routinely verbally abused and there were a number of physical assault attempts. It didn't trouble me but some of the girls found it understandably very intimidating. A friend had his nose broken by a drug user.
Despite this I loved dealing with the few-and-far-between genuine emergencies and the fantastic team spirit we had among the staff.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1304503
09/01/2012 19:36
09/01/2012 19:36
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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The only uncomfortable moment (for us as opposed to for Billy!) was when he told us he'd gashed his head falling off his scooter. Turns out it was a mate throwing a rock at him, but he didn't want to get his mate into trouble. Nice try, but the A&E staff clearly worked out that the injury wasn't consistent with a fall and gave Mrs C quite a suspicious grilling! Ah the reticent schoolboy! I spent 3 days in hospital after carrying out the fainting trick (why) in a cobbled street (why) and hitting my head on a flint wall (surprise). Obviously I couldn't admit to being so stupid, so said I didn't know why I fainted. The three days were not the result of the subsequent injury, but for observation due to doctor's concerns as to why I fainted. It was years before I admitted it to my mum. She wasn't best pleased.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1304528
09/01/2012 20:22
09/01/2012 20:22
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,521 Aldershot
PeteP
Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary
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Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary
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Posts: 21,521
Aldershot
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The most embarassing thing I had to admit to as a kid in outpatients was when the "piece of lead" stuck between my ribs was found to be an air rifle slug. Difficult to explain that one away.
16VT and X1/9 1500
We must all do our part for the planet. I unplugged a row of electric cars that nobody was using.
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Re: First Aid and the UK.
[Re: Genic]
#1306508
15/01/2012 12:29
15/01/2012 12:29
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tim42
Unregistered
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tim42
Unregistered
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When i did my refresher a few weeks ago , the instructor was telling us about one of the lads who failed the course, and when he was home started to practice chest compressions on his wife... nearly killed her. .... burst the silicone implants ?????
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