First Aid and the UK.

Apologies if I'm repeating myself, but I can't find the post if I did already say this and Christmas has wiped out what remained of my memory...

Anyway, last December I finally managed to get myself on a one-day "First Aid in the Workplace" course run by the Red Cross in Cambridge. I've wanted to do this for years and although what you can learn in a day is obviously miniscule, I now at least feel confident that I could do what is advocated in this campaign featuring Vinnie Jones being promoted by the British Heart Foundation.

We learned quite a lot of other stuff (about burns, shock, poisoning, etc) designed to keep someone alive until the professionals arrive - which is literally all First Aid is about.

What amazes me is this: I'm 46 and regard myself as at least minimally public-spirited and yet it's taken me all this time to learn even the most meagre life-saving skills. In France, my daughters (aged 13 and 15 at the time) have both been on 5-day full-time courses and there is a defibrillator on the wall of practically every Mairie in every village in the country.

Question:

Why don't we make first aid courses compulsory in schools? From the start of secondary school, imagine what we could enable future generations to do. Even if only one in ten kids takes it in, that still means eventually 10% of the population would be able to help you or me or our neighbour or uncle if they suffer some kind of incident.

Surely it's got to be worth the investment?

Probably because it's now a generation of blame and claim where you end up with a legal battle if your first aid attempt goes wrong.

Sad as it sounds but it's happens!

Nothing new, Jimbo. We were advised while serving in Germany not to give FA to civvies (German or "Auslanders"), due to the possibility/probability of being held liable for causing further injury or death to the injured person.

That point was raised on my last FA course (Hmmm. I think it's expired; time for another...) and they pointed out that there has never been a successful case against a first aider in the UK; the vast majority are thrown out before they even get to court.

Because there is a view of "Good Samaritan" applied; if the first aider does nothing outside the scope of their training then they cannot be prosecuted....unlike the two over-inflated ego-maniacs we caught who had installed surgical kit, green flashing lights, sirens etc to their car and were cruising around looking for car collisions despite only having the "medical" qualifications for "Basic First Aid at Work".....the thought of one of them performing a tracheotomy on someone fills you with dread!

Probably the same reason other useful information isn't taught at school, like pensions, mortgages/renting, debt, how to use a fire extinguisher, road safety...the list goes on.

Instead we are taught numerous of things we don't end up using later in life, and I question whether it was actually required. Although the odd question relating to the Periodic table does come up in pub quizzes.

I'm not sure I buy the blame/claim argument. According to our instructors, lack of confidence in being able to help was the thing that stopped most people. If you educate children to understand first aid and be competent in its delivery, it would become second nature. As Neil says (and this is quoted in the BHF article) there has never been a successful prosecution of a genuine first aid case. In France there is an offence of "failing to assist a person in danger" and there have certainly been prosecutions for that!
Incidentally, Neil, you should go on a refresher - things have changed appreciably, even this year.

They change every year Jim, I've done annual FA for the last 24 years, I think it's gone full circle now and we're back to leeches and tourniquets!

I do agree everyone should have at least a basic understanding of FA.

It's on the list, Jim - I update every couple of years and usually manage a refresher every year, though I missed last year.

I agree that everyone should be at least FA trained to a basic level. On monday I heared my wife scream for me. Went running into back room. She was holding our 3 year old daughter. She had stopped breathing. She had gone blue around her mouth and grey on her face. The wife has trained in first aid. The eldest lad was there with her. He is a lofeguard, and has saved a few people in the past. He went to bits as it was his sister. It was down to me to revive her. Luckily I have worked in H&S before. Not done a FA course before, but had an idea from videos I have shown in the past. Without this there is a good chance we would have
lost our little girl. It has been put down to her having a Febrile convulsion through a very high temperature, and being sick at the same time blocking her airways. She was running around as though nothing had happened less than 24 hours later. It has shown me that we need as many trained as we can as we don't know how we will react until needed.

Glad your little one is well Alan - well done.

Investment = expense. So it wont in school anytime soon, at least not on a national basis.

I trained with my swimming club to be a lifeguard (and to complete in competitive lifeguard competitions). My dad took me took the swimming club and he encouraged me to join the lifeguard part of the club.

If you want your children to be able to save your life (and vice versa) then its worth the investment of your time to get them trained.

Leave it up to someone else and it will never.

To this day I am grateful that I have never needed or been required save someones life. But I could if I needed to.

Our Company does extensive training with St. Johns or Red Cross on the 3 day course, renewable every 2 or 3 years. We're currently offering 12 places in our area between some 500 employees - currently can't fill all the places because people either;

a/ Can't be arsed

b/ Couldn't cope with other people's injuries/blood etc

c/ Don't want the responsibility

Sad times i'm afraid

I agree that it's a skill I'll be happy never to be called upon to use, but I debate whether it would be prohibitively expensive to teach first aid in schools. Much of the equipment and expertise is available already and I'd have thought it's something that central government would be more likely to fund than other subjects.

But I understand that it's not likely to be adopted in such austere times...

One point i'd make about teaching FA in schools is, judging by the amount of coursework/homework my kids get, something else would have to suffer to fit it in.

Good point Proccy. But they do teach social/civic/sex/whatever education and if they added a couple of hours of first aid twice a term that could work.

Clearly, an effort would have to be made and it would require co-operation and enthusiasm, but I still think the benefits would far outweigh the costs.

Personally I think the "I wont do it 'cause I will get sued" excuse is just a poor excuse for being too lazy/selfish to help.

Added one we often get when offering FA courses.

Yes and no SB, given the endless reams of red tape and possibilities where an an individual can find themselves in a situation where they might be sued, caution is actually quite sensible.

Not for a second would I not try and help someone who had taken ill or been hurt - and nor would most people, but sadly times have changed from when the school nurse could give you a cuddle and kiss your grazed knee better.

He/she is probably not even allowed to touch a child these days let alone shock of all horrors plant a kiss on one.

Must make diagnosis tricky to say the least...



Agree 100%

Maybe instead of 'teaching' children the wonder and delights of religion in RE lessons, instead they should be taught basic first aid.

Seems a pretty sane decision - after all, we wouldnt want the future residents of this country having a dilemna as to which option to choose in able to help someone who has been injured - pray, or offer basic first aid.

I actually think the french law of failing to help would be an excellent idea.

As for being worried that injurylawyers4u might sue me because I attempted to save somebody's life and failed. All I can say is bring it on !

Part of our course did cover things like

"what if I do chest compression and it breaks a rib" - tough on the person, better a cracked rib than being dead. Your job is to keep them going until someone professionally trained arrives.

OR

"what if there is a possible neck injury and the person isn't breathing/isn't a pulse" - same again, as much as it might be bad that you cause further damage, better to have them alive than dead.

OR

"a person is clinging to an upturned boat 500 yards out in a storm force gale, do you attempt to swim to them and perform a rescue" - No, call the police.

etc etc etc

In all cases, you assess the risk to yourself, then to the person you are trying to help and then decide your action. No court in the land is going to convict you if you have acted to help someone.

If I do something like attempting open heart surgery after seeing an episode of Holby City then I would expect to be spending some leisure time at her majesty's pleasure.

I cant think of anything that isn't pretty much black and white when it comes to first aid.

As both Barnacle and I said earlier in the thread, there has never been a successful prosecution (and I'd be surprised if the CPS has ever accepted to take one forward) in circumstances where a first aider has tried to intervene and keep someone alive within the boundaries of first aid as it is taught. It's just not a real issue, however it is perceived (or used as an excuse).
As per the BHF campaign, these days the focus is on whether or not the casualty is breathing and if they aren't it is just CPR after 10 seconds, with mouth-to-mouth pretty much forgotten unless you feel confident to perform it.

Oddly enough, we used to get a hundred quid a year 'bonus' for being qualified first aiders. Taxed and NI'd, naturally.

We get a fiver a week

Ours do too

I work in the local college and the staff that are first aid trained get a different rate per hour than the rest of us staff and in my opinion so they should, they do a great job.
But at the moment we are struggling to get more new staff trained up because like you say it's the blame game, staff these days are worried about the trouble they could find themselves in should something go wrong, or in are college the staff just don't want the hassle of having to deal with teenagers that are abusive, rude and violent, all for an extra £1 per hour!

In theory its a great idea as is sigh language in primary schools but untill people feel they can help without the blame game I dont think much will happen.

Our designated FAs get paid a bonus on qualifying/re-qualifying. We offer courses FoC to all employees as we have our own Instructors and Assessors, some don't see why they should "because there's no extra money". The course is offered for their own benefit, apparently we should pay them for it anyway.

When I was a kid, my parents used to make the effort to take my brother and I to a local St Johns Ambulance group for kids, every week.

We learnt first aid, as well as making new friends, having discos, presentations, trips out and attending the local football team matches.

We enjoyed it at the time and although things have changed slightly over the years, I still remember enough basics to maybe help save someones life one day.

Back in the days when I was at sea we had to have first aid qualifications as part of getting our 2nd mate's tickets.

Not surprising really considering that cargo ships didn't carry doctors, there's no ambulance service deep sea and it was generally accepted as being one of the most dangerous jobs you could do.

I know you just love iphones and all that they stand for, Jim But I have let everyone know there's a cracking app from the British Red Cross in the App store. It's free, has video's, guides and even an emergency button where you can select your emergency, from Allergies to Bleeding, Choking right through to Stroke, it takes you step by step in large, clear print. You'd be silly not to have it on your phone (it's on the front page on mine).

Given all the comments that this should be taught in schools I'm surprised that no-one else has said this...... but I was.

Only issue is, that it was a long time ago now and only some of the knowledge stays with me!

Worth doing at the time - definitely; enough to save a life years down the line - maybe

Pinin - I've nothing against products that start with an "i", except iTunes. Although these days I don't have much use for iliner or iiHerecomesthefilthquickrunaway either.

The Red Cross app has been on the front page of my iPad since the day I did the course. Nice one for remembering it - it is very good!

srm6 - well, I'm very pleased - if surprised - to hear you were given first aid tuition at school. Was it a single school initiative or LEA wide?

Oh, and I don't get a bean for attending the First Aid course, but I do regard myself as lucky to have had it paid for.

No idea if I'm honest (was only 9 or 10 at the time), although I mentioned this to my wife and she had a similar course so it may have been Northampton-wide?

Having said that, saw an advert over the weekend saying that now you are only supposed to do the chest compressions to revive someone so half of what was covered is apparently 'wrong' now?!

Not wrong I think they are trying to make it easier, and overcome some fears about "kissing" someone who may have HIV.

Worryingly I recently read a book (Blood, Sweat and Tea by Tom Reynolds*) written by a paramedic who stated that your chances of survival after a heart attack are pretty slim, even if the paramedics get there. Apparently Holby City et al have given the public an overly optimistic view of heart attacks..

*Looking on Amazon, it would seem that the C4 series Sirens was based on his books.

You are unlikely to survive your heart stopping unless someone uses an AED (defibrillator). Something like every minute until you use one, the chance of survival goes down 10%.

When I trained (and then worked) in A&E our success rate was 20% for casualties admitted via ambulance and *only* 28% for "witnessed" arrests within the hospital environment, and that was considered the norm. Television shows have given a very rosy picture of survival whether within or outside the hospital environment, although that is not to say it isn't worth trying in case you happen to strike lucky and get one of the 20%. I've had a couple of those, one of the most memorable being where it was 45 minutes before assistance arrived and trust me, that is a *long* time to keep up full-blown CPR......I nearly needed it myself afterwards!

Pretty much what TR said in his books. Well worth a read, light reading as they're based on his blogs, but it's staggering the misuse and abuse the general public heap on the Ambulance and A&E services. Reading the books, I couldn't help feeling some people should lose the right of access to an Ambulance or indeed the NHS. The end result could only be a reduction in the less worthy (as selected by RK) elements of society.

Slewing off topic further, sorry J_C, but the things that used to bug me about BBC's "Casualty" was that they didn't show things like the *same* attempted suicide victim coming in every three days (common occurrence), the twenty sprained ankles (especially on Saturday nights when girls, predominantly, tried to dance in high heels) each shift, note not per day, per shift! They didn't show the "day after Giro day" when people would try to get admitted because they'd boozed up all their money and needed food/shelter!

They also didn't show the routine violence directed towards the staff, again on a daily basis, nor did they seem to show the hundreds of attendees that were coming in because they couldn't be bothered to see (or didn't believe)their own GP.

I'll never forget taking the history of one admission who ran through a list symptoms ranging from hair-loss to teeth falling out, severe abdo pain, bleeding gums, chest pain (a red flag, meaning you couldn't turn them away), headaches, blurred vision etc etc etc and when I asked two questions it all fell into place; "How long have you had these symptoms", answer "Forty years!" followed by "Has your GP given you anything for this?" to which he replied with the name of a well-known anti-psychotic drug!

At least it gave me something to laugh about!

I worked in A&E for 6 months.

I gradually lost all faith in society dealing with endless streams of drunks, drug users, "suicide attempts" and assaults. I became bitter and incredibly cold-hearted towards patients, which troubled me. I was routinely verbally abused and there were a number of physical assault attempts. It didn't trouble me but some of the girls found it understandably very intimidating. A friend had his nose broken by a drug user.

Despite this I loved dealing with the few-and-far-between genuine emergencies and the fantastic team spirit we had among the staff.

Having an accident-prone yet adventurous 13-year-old stepson, I've done my fair share of the Addenbrooke's A&E waiting rooms - very luckily not at an hour when pubs are chucking out. I've always been impressed by the calm, courteous and efficient service, but I hate to think what it can be like. The only uncomfortable moment (for us as opposed to for Billy!) was when he told us he'd gashed his head falling off his scooter. Turns out it was a mate throwing a rock at him, but he didn't want to get his mate into trouble. Nice try, but the A&E staff clearly worked out that the injury wasn't consistent with a fall and gave Mrs C quite a suspicious grilling!

Ah the reticent schoolboy! I spent 3 days in hospital after carrying out the fainting trick (why) in a cobbled street (why) and hitting my head on a flint wall (surprise).

Obviously I couldn't admit to being so stupid, so said I didn't know why I fainted. The three days were not the result of the subsequent injury, but for observation due to doctor's concerns as to why I fainted.

It was years before I admitted it to my mum. She wasn't best pleased.

The most embarassing thing I had to admit to as a kid in outpatients was when the "piece of lead" stuck between my ribs was found to be an air rifle slug.

Difficult to explain that one away.

When i did my refresher a few weeks ago , the instructor was telling us about one of the lads who failed the course, and when he was home started to practice chest compressions on his wife... nearly killed her.

.... burst the silicone implants ?????