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Violence against violins
#1302665
04/01/2012 16:58
04/01/2012 16:58
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546 Northumberland
AndrewR
OP
I AM a Coop
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OP
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546
Northumberland
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A Facebook friend of mine posted a link to this story, which is both sad and deeply annoying. However, I was wondering about the legality of this (I really must join a legal forum one day). Shirley if Paypal issue a refund from a seller's account then ownership of the item reverts to the seller and deliberate damage to it is a criminal matter. Paypal can't make something legal just by putting in their T&Cs "We might do this", can they? "We may require you to hunt down and murder the seller", etc.
Dear monos, a secret truth.
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: AndrewR]
#1302671
04/01/2012 17:15
04/01/2012 17:15
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731 Surrey
Emjay
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731
Surrey
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Under UK law, generally parties are free to contract, subject to certain limitations.
The contract does not have to make commercial sense or be consistent with "common sense", so we could agree that if I pay you a quid you would hop on one foot for an hour.
Illegal contracts (such as hiring a hit man) are unenforceable.
I suspect Paypal's T&Cs are subject to a different country's jurisdiction.
Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing? (John 7:51)
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: Emjay]
#1302674
04/01/2012 17:25
04/01/2012 17:25
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546 Northumberland
AndrewR
OP
I AM a Coop
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OP
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546
Northumberland
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we could agree that if I pay you a quid you would hop on one foot for an hour Let's agree that if you pay me a quid I'll *tell* you've hopped for an hour ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) Illegal contracts (such as hiring a hit man) are unenforceable. Which was my point - in this scenario the seller has had property removed without due process of law, which sounds pretty illegal to me, making this a criminal matter. I suspect Paypal's T&Cs are subject to a different country's jurisdiction. Paypalania?
Dear monos, a secret truth.
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: AndrewR]
#1302683
04/01/2012 17:46
04/01/2012 17:46
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731 Surrey
Emjay
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731
Surrey
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No paypal refund until proof of destruction. At the time of destruction I guess it was the purchaser's property. If this was UK law, I don't see it being criminal damage, and it's the criminal law you can't contract out of.
But every time I look at this at the end of every argument I can see another hydra's head! Don't suppose you'd feel like paying me for my time in coming up with an opinion?
Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing? (John 7:51)
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: Emjay]
#1302693
04/01/2012 18:10
04/01/2012 18:10
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546 Northumberland
AndrewR
OP
I AM a Coop
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OP
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546
Northumberland
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But every time I look at this at the end of every argument I can see another hydra's head! Don't suppose you'd feel like paying me for my time in coming up with an opinion? Tell you what, you go ahead and do all of the legal spade-work and we'll call it quits for the hopping.
Dear monos, a secret truth.
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: Emjay]
#1302696
04/01/2012 18:20
04/01/2012 18:20
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546 Northumberland
AndrewR
OP
I AM a Coop
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OP
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546
Northumberland
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At the time of destruction I guess it was the purchaser's property. If this was UK law, I don't see it being criminal damage, and it's the criminal law you can't contract out of. Hang on, though, if the buyer exercises the rights of their ownership in the form of destroying the item then doesn't that mean they've accepted the item? I can't say, buy your car off you, spray it neon pink and then say that I don't like it very much and want my money back.
Dear monos, a secret truth.
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: AndrewR]
#1302699
04/01/2012 18:29
04/01/2012 18:29
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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Hang on, though, if the buyer exercises the rights of their ownership in the form of destroying the item then doesn't that mean they've accepted the item?
I can't say, buy your car off you, spray it neon pink and then say that I don't like it very much and want my money back. Exactly. Whoever dreamt up such a 'clause' in paypal's small print really didn't think that one through. ![coffee coffee](/forum/images/graemlins/default/coffee.gif)
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: AndrewR]
#1302707
04/01/2012 18:42
04/01/2012 18:42
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731 Surrey
Emjay
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731
Surrey
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I can't say, buy your car off you, spray it neon pink and then say that I don't like it very much and want my money back. And you are intelligent enough to know I didn't say you could - I did query where the criminal offence was (as opposed to a breach of contract or lack of good taste). You'd better still be hopping, bud!
Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing? (John 7:51)
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: Emjay]
#1302920
05/01/2012 10:05
05/01/2012 10:05
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546 Northumberland
AndrewR
OP
I AM a Coop
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OP
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546
Northumberland
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And you are intelligent enough to know I didn't say you could - I did query where the criminal offence was (as opposed to a breach of contract or lack of good taste). No, sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest that you did say that. I'm just trying to understand how a situation where a seller can end up deprived of property without any legal recourse can be legitimate under either contract or criminal law.
Dear monos, a secret truth.
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: AndrewR]
#1303004
05/01/2012 14:17
05/01/2012 14:17
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,616 Aldershot
PeteP
Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary
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Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary
Forum Fossil
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,616
Aldershot
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The problem there lies in who decides that a good is in fact counterfeit. I would suggest that Paypal is not a competent authority to judge.
16VT and X1/9 1500
We must all do our part for the planet. I unplugged a row of electric cars that nobody was using.
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: AndrewR]
#1303016
05/01/2012 14:36
05/01/2012 14:36
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546 Northumberland
AndrewR
OP
I AM a Coop
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OP
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546
Northumberland
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There are lots of problems, aside from anything else PayPal seems to be making an assumption of guilt on the part of the seller.
How is the seller expected to prove that the goods they sent were not counterfeit? How do they even prove that the goods they sent are the ones the buyer claimed to have received?
Dear monos, a secret truth.
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: AndrewR]
#1303287
05/01/2012 23:49
05/01/2012 23:49
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Steamer
Unregistered
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Steamer
Unregistered
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I dont mind adults smashing up Violins its the Kiddie Fiddlers that I cant stand!!!! ![paper paper](/forum/images/graemlins/default/paperbag.gif)
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Re: Violence against violins
[Re: pinin_prestatyn]
#1303846
07/01/2012 15:10
07/01/2012 15:10
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Steamer
Unregistered
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Steamer
Unregistered
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Thank you kind sir! ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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