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Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #837011
22/05/2009 22:56
22/05/2009 22:56

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



Due to the scratches made by the bits of the previous pistons falling apart I needed to rebore it again from 83mm to 83.5mm. With a 90.4mm stroke this results in a 2475cc capacity engine.

One of my requirements when looking for somewhere to live here is it must have a double garage so I could work on the car and park both under cover during the winter.

John

Last edited by TipoBoy; 22/05/2009 22:57.
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #837280
23/05/2009 19:07
23/05/2009 19:07

T
Taz
Unregistered
Taz
Unregistered
T



excellent work John.

Out of curiosity, did you ever mic up the big ends ? I wonder as to why my coop always shows about 1.5 - 2.0 bar at very hot idle smile

keep your determination going dude ! cool

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #837301
23/05/2009 20:08
23/05/2009 20:08

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



Is this what you needed to know?

Connecting rod big end diameters:
53.899
53.899
53.897
53.897
53.899

Crankshaft rod journal diameters:
50.785
50.784
50.783
50.783
50.784

Connecting rod clearances:
0.034
0.036
0.034
0.034
0.036

Connecting rod bearing thicknesses:
1.54
1.539
1.54
1.54
1.54
1.54

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #837423
24/05/2009 02:34
24/05/2009 02:34

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



Almost ready! Spent 8 hours today on the following...

Connected fuel lines
Connected throttle cable
Connected heater pipes
Connected reverse gear selector
Fitted clutch slave cylinder
Fitted gear linkages
Attached powersteering rack to subframe
Connected electrical connectors at back of engine
Fitted Power Steering hoses
Fitted Power Steering pump
Fitted pulley for Power Steering Pump
Fitted front water rail
Fitted alternator
Fitted exhaust manifold
Fitted auxiliary belts
Fitted wires between alternator, start motor and battery
Fitted oil cooler
Fitted cooling duct for oil cooler
Fitted remote oil filter hoses
Fitted Turbo
Fitted battery tray
Fitted earth strap for gearbox

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #837809
25/05/2009 00:53
25/05/2009 00:53

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



Finished fitting everything else today. Pressed my foot on the clutch and heard a snap and pedal went to the floor frown . Trying to move the fork by hand shows no resistance and I can lift it up about an inch. I think it's snapped. Just when I was about to start the car I now need to remove the gearbox. I'm looking at the best way of doing this without removing the engine. I read the guide for the 16V engine and it sounds only slightly less work than removing the whole engine! It wouldn't be so bad without having to remove the driveshafts and drop the subframe.

Currently feeling as sick as a dog.

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #837812
25/05/2009 01:22
25/05/2009 01:22
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,564
Lincolnshire
bridges Offline
My life on the forum
bridges  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,564
Lincolnshire
I don't know if anymore room is required on the turbo, when I did my 20v I was able to drop the subframe at an angle and drop the box down, technically if the suspension was undone at the top it would all come down with the steering coloumn undone. Would be a pig to manouvre though.




Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: bridges] #837815
25/05/2009 01:42
25/05/2009 01:42

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



I'm going to have a go at removing it in situ first. It gets so depressing when you've spent the day trying to do things like refit the 5 stud downpipe only to realize you'd got to take it off again. I was just about to lower the car onto the floor and fill it with fluids before seeing if it would start cry

Okay, I hope the engineer who thought up how the starter motor is fitted was fired. That 3rd bolt is a absolute nightmare. I don't think you can get to it from the back of the start motor, you have to go in over the top. I could just about reach it with my fingers and could get a tiny ratchet on it a couple of clicks at a time until it's fully undone. I don't know how it's ever going to go back in! I think in hindsight it should be the first one to be undone because otherwise the weight of the motor sits on the bolt making it difficult to spin the bolt by hand.

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #837855
25/05/2009 09:57
25/05/2009 09:57
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,706
Gone
J
Jimbo Offline
Je suis un Coupé
Jimbo  Offline
Je suis un Coupé
J

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,706
Gone
What a nightmare John frown

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: Jimbo] #844435
05/06/2009 18:21
05/06/2009 18:21

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



A new clutch fork arrived from the UK today. I also ordered various other spares such release bearings, sleeves and gaskets.

Hopefully tomorrow I can finish removing the gearbox and repair the damage. We're expecting snow overnight so no loss being in the garage all day!!!

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #845654
08/06/2009 05:43
08/06/2009 05:43

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



I got the gearbox off this weekend and discovered the clutch fork was actually okay. Instead it was the release bearing that was damaged. The two little bits of metal that wrap over the ends were snapped off. The main part was okay, just the last 5mm that bend over parallel to the pressure plate to fully locate the fork were boken off.

When fitting the new release bearing I noticed what I had done wrong the last time. There is a thin peice of plastic that goes around the end of the section that clips into the pressure plate. It appears that this is used to hold the spring in place whilst it slides onto the pressure plate. When I reassembled the clutch this plastic would have been pushed back onto the base of the bearing because it had already been fitted once. I wasn't aware it was in the wrong place. This is why when I thought I had located the release bearing onto the surface of the pressure plate it had not taken hold.

The gearbox is all back together now. What I job, it must have taken me 2 hours to get the gearbox aligned. The pressure plate hadn't moved but it was very difficult to try and get the angle correct. I used a jack to hold the engine in place and a engine hoist to raise and lower the gearbox. The clutch now works, very pleased and I've started to put everything else back together. Started motor refitted and driveshafts. I'm having fun trying to get the subframe to line up with the front mounting bolt locations.

I found the best way to get to the top bolt on the starter motor is from the battery tray side. You forearm ends up being in line with the engine and hand is under the heater matrix hoses.

John

Last edited by TipoBoy; 08/06/2009 05:46.
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #845656
08/06/2009 06:39
08/06/2009 06:39
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,572
Northampton England
Sedicivalvole Offline
Club member 2092
Sedicivalvole  Offline
Club member 2092
Forum is my life

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,572
Northampton England
Sounds like your determination is paying off!


Vinci Grey LE
Alfa 147 GTA 3.2 V6
BMW E92 M3 4.0 V8
Fiat Tipo Sedicivalvole 2.0 16v ABS
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: Sedicivalvole] #845661
08/06/2009 07:16
08/06/2009 07:16
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level
knight7660  Offline
Competition Level

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
yer the starter motor bolt (the one closes to the block) are a pain in the arse


LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: knight7660] #848380
12/06/2009 06:08
12/06/2009 06:08

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



It's almost alive!!

I finished fitting the parts that were taken off to repair the clutch. I lowered the car back to the ground. It looks very different at floor level rather than having it nose 1m up in the air! I filled it with fluids. I'd been having nightmares about driving it with no oil or coolant.

I cranked it over without connecting the plugs to build up oil pressure. This seemed to take forever. I must have cranked it for over a minute before the oil pressure showed. I remember it took a long time previously and you almost get to the point where you think the engine hasn't been built properly.

I hope I haven't done any damage to the engine. In hindsight I should have filled the oil filter with oil and also the hoses connecting the remote oil filter to the block. I think it must have been pumping oil through these before it could build up pressure. I removed the coil leads but I should also have removed the plugs to make it easier to turn over and less pressure on the main and rod bearings.

I connected up the plugs but it runs very rough. Hardly able to idle. Tonight I started to investigate why. I could hear the fuel pump start up so I'm assuming the fuel pressure is good. The easiest next task was to check the sparks. Low and behind plug number 1 was not firing. I tried a different working HT lead and that made no different ruling out that as the culprit. I tried a different working coil pack and that also made no difference. I tried using it's coil pack on another plug and it worked. So the coil pack is okay which is good news. I have joints in the coil leads as they come out of the ECU for connecting into the traction control. These are bypassed at the moment. I then tried connecting coil lead 1 from the ECU to coil lead 3 going to the engine. The coil pack 3 then fired. This proves that there is a signal coming out of the ECU for coil 1. That's also a relief.

So in summary I have a break in the wire between the ECU and the coil for coil pack 1. That's my next task.

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #849031
12/06/2009 23:17
12/06/2009 23:17
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,729
N.E Scotland
mattB Offline
Club member 6
mattB  Offline
Club member 6
I AM a Coop

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,729
N.E Scotland
Good work John. How long do you have left over there before you have to think about shipping it back?


Death-rattle-tastic
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: mattB] #849072
13/06/2009 01:52
13/06/2009 01:52

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



I'm in the middle of renewing my work permit for another two years. Before the end of the year I also want to apply for permanent residency.

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #849074
13/06/2009 04:18
13/06/2009 04:18

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



The ignition wires I was testing by the ECU are for the injectors not the coils!

I'm still not getting a spark on cylinder #1.

Cylinders 2,3,4 and 5 are okay.

I've disconnected all the coils and tried driving coil 1 using the plug from coil 2.
This works proving that the coil and HT lead are okay.
I've checked the continuity of all 5 coil signal wires back to the FIAT ECU plug and they are all good.
I've checked the continuity of the wire from coil 1 to the connector on the autronic multiplexer and that is good.
I've checked that the multiplexer is receiving a 12V supply.

This isn't what I wanted to find out. Something is wrong with either the ECU or multiplexer. The multiplexer is used to decode the output from 4 signals and drive 5, 6 or 8 cylinders.

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #849090
13/06/2009 08:54
13/06/2009 08:54

W
Willos
Unregistered
Willos
Unregistered
W



Not a simple thing as its not earthed properly. Dry conector ?
Not done any work on the coil packs yet but does the earth lead connect just outside the rocker cover. Good luck

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #853163
19/06/2009 21:29
19/06/2009 21:29

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



Oh the fun I'm having!

More testing shows up that cylinder #1 isn't getting a spark but cylinder #5 is getting a double spark!

The Autronic ECU has 4 ignition outputs. Because the Coupe has 5 cylinders we use an additional box called an Autronic multiplexer. These 4 ignition outputs go into the multiplexer and it converts the signal into 5 outputs. If I only connect up the wire for #5 cylinder from the multiplexer I still get a double spark. This eliminates interference from the other 4 coil output wires.

If I disconnect either the phase sensor or rpm sensor on the engine the Autronic doesn't fire so it's definately getting signals from these sensors.

My only hope is that by connecting a laptop to the ECU I can see something wrong with the settings or sensor inputs. Very strange because the settings in the ECU shouldn't have changed and the engine sensors are the same.

My only fear at the moment is the rpm wheel on the crank was damaged causing some funny signals to be sent to the rpm sensor.

Hopefully connecting the ECU to the laptop will show something up. If it doesn't I can connect a scope up to the sensors.

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #855956
24/06/2009 23:10
24/06/2009 23:10

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



It's alive!!!

I managed to get my oscilloscope working and took this image of the output from the rpm sensor (60 - 2 wheel):
click to enlarge

All 58 teeth are being picked up but the signal gets weak between teeth 30 and 58. Teeth 44, 45 and 46 are particularly poor. The peak voltage of the good signals is +5.12V/-4.92V. The peak voltage of teeth 44, 45 and 46 is only +2.23V/-2.16V.

From reading the manual the Autronic detects the rising and falling edges of the wave. Fortunately as you will read later the signals were still strong enough for the Autronic.

I could get my work laptop to talk to the Autronic as it had a RS232 port. However my home laptop only has USB. I was using the driver that came with my USB to RS232 adapter but it didn't work with the Autronic. I installed the Prolific drivers and my home laptop could then talk to the Autronic.

I thought I would try adjusting the divider offset. Nothing to loose. The manual didn't say what it was used for just to adjust until the sync/cylinder figure was between 20% and 80%. The old divider value was 6 and that gave an unstable sync/cylinder figure, it would bounce between 64% and 128%.

I unplugged the coils and removed the plugs to make cranking easier. I then tried various values and these were the results:

0 = 3%
1 = 7%
2 = 11%
3 = 15%
4 = 19%
5 = 64%/128%
6 = 64%/128%
7 = 32%
8 = 36%
9 = 40%

For some reason using either 5 or 6 messes up the sync/cylinder figure. I set the divider offset to 7 as this was the closest number to the original that gave a figure for the sync/cylinder between 20% and 80%.

I then connected a spare plug to ignition lead 1 and sure enough I now got a spark. I then connected ignition lead 5 and I now got a single spark not the double I was previously seeing This was looking promising. I connected everything back up and she fired up first time. I was very happy!

Using a different divider offset shifts the timing. I now need to use a dial back timing light to check that the TDC used by the Autronic is the same as the engine's TDC. There is another offset in the Autronic to adjust this if it's out. There are so many things you can adjust but it's tricky to know how they affect the running of the engine without access to the formulas/code.

In case you didn't know my Coupe is running with 5xMSD coil packs and ignition leads so it makes it wasy to clamp the timing light onto the HT lead for cylinder 1.

I need to use a dial back timing light because there is only a timing mark for TDC. I thought it would be more acurate to use a dial back timing light that mark the angles on the timing pulley.

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #855960
24/06/2009 23:19
24/06/2009 23:19

Y
yellow20vtbmx
Unregistered
yellow20vtbmx
Unregistered
Y



my god this car is amazing but im more impressed by your genius john. well done and 10 points!

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #855969
24/06/2009 23:29
24/06/2009 23:29

N
Nobby
Unregistered
Nobby
Unregistered
N



Well done John smile

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856419
25/06/2009 18:21
25/06/2009 18:21
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,685
Berlin
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
barnacle  Offline
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,685
Berlin
John, looking at the signal (and assuming it's the same on every cycle), the teeth are obviously moving to and away from the sensor. This might just be normal manufacturing tolerances, but it might also be either that the wheel is mounted eccentrically or that it's been bent slightly.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856553
25/06/2009 21:32
25/06/2009 21:32

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



The digital timing light is a great tool. I trimmed the setting in the Autronic and now the ECU and the engine advance figures are the same :-) I need to do this again tonight using a higher RPM than idle to double check the figures are okay.

My neighbour came over and wondered what the hell I was up to. The car looked like some crazy science experiment with a laptop, oscilloscope and digital timing light connected up to it. Cables everywhere and the ECU and multiplexer spread out in the passenger footwell.

It's very easy to check timing against the single TDC mark on the cambelt cover than try and place additional marks on the timing wheel at various angles.

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856760
26/06/2009 09:23
26/06/2009 09:23

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



It's on the road now smile

Double checked the timing at 2000 rpm and 3000 rpm. It was rock steady and spot on. I finished putting it all back together at midnight. I then gave it a quick wash as it was thick with dust. Drove it to local petrol station because I was almost out of fuel and needed the tyre air pressure checking. Then I spent 1.5 hours cruising around calgary. It's 2:30am now and I have work in the morning but I'm not tired.

Very happy that it's all working and there are no problems.

John

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856794
26/06/2009 10:07
26/06/2009 10:07

S
solas
Unregistered
solas
Unregistered
S



Fantastic news,it must be a great relief to have the car back on the road, well done

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856796
26/06/2009 10:09
26/06/2009 10:09

M
Marco20valveT
Unregistered
Marco20valveT
Unregistered
M



congrats mate!!

brilliant hjob you have done! enjoy your hard work!

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856804
26/06/2009 10:24
26/06/2009 10:24
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,572
Northampton England
Sedicivalvole Offline
Club member 2092
Sedicivalvole  Offline
Club member 2092
Forum is my life

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,572
Northampton England
Congratulations John,

Excellent news.. I bet the drive around was a pleasant one laugh

Nick


Vinci Grey LE
Alfa 147 GTA 3.2 V6
BMW E92 M3 4.0 V8
Fiat Tipo Sedicivalvole 2.0 16v ABS
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: Sedicivalvole] #856827
26/06/2009 10:51
26/06/2009 10:51

N
Nobby
Unregistered
Nobby
Unregistered
N



Yay! When are you taking it back for mapping John?

Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856883
26/06/2009 12:51
26/06/2009 12:51
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,895
2011 and 2015 FCCUK F1 Champ.
B
bezzer Offline
Forum is my life
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B

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,895
2011 and 2015 FCCUK F1 Champ.
Well done John, great to hear its back on the road cool



......My Boy...... (PB #7)
Re: 2.5 Canadian Coupe [Re: ] #856908
26/06/2009 14:04
26/06/2009 14:04

T
TipoBoy
Unregistered
TipoBoy
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: Nobby
Yay! When are you taking it back for mapping John?


I changed the oil after 30 mins. I then change the oil again after 500km, again at 1500km and switch to synthetic at 3000km. For 3000 km I need to keep the engine speed under 3000 rpm and run with no boost. Pretty boring driving except the pops/bangs on overrun love Then I can take it for a tune.

John

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