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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Nigel]
#712610
22/11/2008 20:29
22/11/2008 20:29
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Nigel - how exactly do you fit the camber gauge to the car? Magnet onto the brake disc with the wheel still on? I'm just confused as to how you might do it WITHOUT checking, jacking, removing the wheel, adjusting, refitting wheel, jack down and check again. Ah... suppose you could check the camber of the car with the wheel on, jack up and remove wheel, check it again and subtract the difference when you make any adjustments. I need to get out more.......... ![laugh \:D](/forum/images/graemlins/default/laugh.gif)
Last edited by Nobby; 22/11/2008 20:30.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#712820
23/11/2008 11:27
23/11/2008 11:27
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369
Staffordshire
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Nobby - you've got it - process is as follows (Let's assume for this exercise that the wheels are at the standard 0.5 degrees negative , and we want 1.5 degrees negative): 1) Measure camber of wheels with the car on the ground 2) Turn the car round and measure again, in case the ground isn't level 3) write down existing camber settings 4) average the measurement between the two measurements at 1) & 2) above if they are different 5) jack up the car, take the wheels off 6) remove the hub top mount bolt and fit the camber bolts 7) loosen the bottom hub bolt so the hub can move in the suspension strut 8) locate the camber gauge on the hub - it fits over the centre nut and is held on with fairly strong magnets - it will stay on unless its knocked) 9) measure the camber 10) use the camber bolt to dial in 1 degree more negative camber than the current reading (which will probably be two or three degrees positive with the car in the air) 11) repeat steps 6) to 10) for the other front wheel 12) refit wheels, put the car back on the round and move it backwards and forwards to settle the suspension 13) measure camber (and turn the car around and re-measure if steps 1) & 2) above showed the ground isn't perfectly level 14) go for a drive, but be careful at your first corner, as you will almost certainly turn more than you thought you would - the difference caused by 1 degree is amazing - I love it ![love \:#](/forum/images/graemlins/default/love.gif)
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Nigel]
#717291
29/11/2008 14:50
29/11/2008 14:50
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369
Staffordshire
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bloody hell ![shocked \:o](/forum/images/graemlins/default/shocked.gif) I've just been and got my tracking checked after setting the camber to 1.5 degrees negative it was toeing in by 10mm ![shocked \:o](/forum/images/graemlins/default/shocked.gif) (supposed to me 2mm toe out) tyres were well scrubbed - just as well they were already worn out, as the last week of driving has finished them off However, I now have great turn-in AND it now feels planted again
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Nigel]
#717716
30/11/2008 12:59
30/11/2008 12:59
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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When you dial in more camber you are also going to increase the toe in, so what you have to do is set the camber you want first. I can now get up to 2.5 negative camber ![shocked \:o](/forum/images/graemlins/default/shocked.gif) with using a bolt for adjustment. ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) The car is not setup right yet (corner weighting and ride height have all been done to death). But I'm not far away now....then all I have to do is play with the damping settings.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#718609
01/12/2008 18:55
01/12/2008 18:55
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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So to re-cap if i want to run 1.2 negative camber the toe in should be?
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#718611
01/12/2008 18:56
01/12/2008 18:56
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,729 N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,729
N.E Scotland
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It should be as standard. But if you dont like the way that feels then you can have a fiddle with it.
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: mattB]
#718614
01/12/2008 19:08
01/12/2008 19:08
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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I'm going to have a play with Toe out - 1/2 degree or so should be fine for starters. ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#718800
01/12/2008 23:56
01/12/2008 23:56
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#718878
02/12/2008 09:44
02/12/2008 09:44
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,285 Manchester
GraemeC
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,285
Manchester
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Purchased some bolts from Nigel's e-bay link and had them fitted at Motormech on Friday - initial thoughts below (been taking it easy due to the weather and because its not properly tracked yet)
The initial turn in has improved massively, it feels like the car responds quicker and there is no hint of understeer
Through the corner the car feels totally planted and very pointy - it just goes where you want it to and already feels very precise (which will be even better come the weekend when its tracked properly)
In a straight line the car feels fine, with no tendency to follow imperfections in the road
My car's handling was good before, but these have made a significant improvement - for the cost, this has to be a 100% recommended improvement for anyone running a modified suspension set up
My setup - strut brace, Nigel lower brace, eibach/bilstein combo and a whiteline rear ARB. All my suspension components were refreshed less than two years ago.
It is hard to understand how a cemetery can raise burial rates and blame it on the cost of living
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: GraemeC]
#718989
02/12/2008 13:20
02/12/2008 13:20
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Per
Unregistered
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Per
Unregistered
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Nice to see more people discovering the camberbolts! Probably the most significant mod after lowering, especially since the camber seems to go positive in doing so. I use -1mm toe-in from recommendation that it would tramline too much with lots of camber + toe-out. Seems to work fine but I should try 0mm toe-in I think.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Kelv27]
#718991
02/12/2008 13:21
02/12/2008 13:21
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Per
Unregistered
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Per
Unregistered
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Each time i get the toe settings done, would the cambers need to be adjusted again? No, the camber change the toe-in, but not the other way! if you see what I mean. So you do have to change toe-in as you change the camber.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Kelv27]
#719015
02/12/2008 13:51
02/12/2008 13:51
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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That entirely depends on what top mount you use - but any will makes the settings deviate.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#719018
02/12/2008 13:55
02/12/2008 13:55
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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Nice to see more people discovering the camberbolts! Probably the most significant mod after lowering, especially since the camber seems to go positive in doing so. I use -1mm toe-in from recommendation that it would tramline too much with lots of camber + toe-out. Seems to work fine but I should try 0mm toe-in I think. When you lower the car you add negative camber as the wishbone angle changes. With a low car you will find that with the extra camber it will turn in sharply, but the car will then 'flop' onto the outside front wheel as the wishbone can't compensate and the shock has to do all the work. With a car on standard suspension I would think this would be very noticeable.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#719067
02/12/2008 14:38
02/12/2008 14:38
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
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The Castor is already dialed in. ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) I'm going to play around with the camber a bit more. The top mount is not adjustable, so I'm going to slot the damper a touch so that I can go up to -2 with a camber bolt if I want to. I was also going to try some toe out... I'll start a separate post to let you know how I get on. Have you started playing around yet Suba? ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) How do you dial in castor on the top mounts then? Are they aftermarket items or can you do it with the standard jobs? Also, how do you guage how much you've dialled in and how much would you want? Sorry for all the questions but i'm happy with the engine now so i'm going to pick on the suspension- on the cheap ![laugh \:D](/forum/images/graemlins/default/laugh.gif)
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#719069
02/12/2008 14:41
02/12/2008 14:41
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Per
Unregistered
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Per
Unregistered
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When you lower the car you add negative camber as the wishbone angle changes. That's odd, I got positive camber? (from std -0.5 or what it is)
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Trappy]
#719076
02/12/2008 14:45
02/12/2008 14:45
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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I'll be posting up soon - see my other thread on gaz, I posted on it this morning. BTW - the handling stuff that I have been doing has not been cheap, I could have built a solid 450bhp engine for the same money I have spent so far.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#719078
02/12/2008 14:48
02/12/2008 14:48
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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Imagine the wishbone sits level with the car attached to one end amd the wheel to the other. If you lower the car end then the wishbone points upwards if you look along it from the car side, this makes the top of the wheel point inwards, hence negative camber, the greater the angle then the more negative camber. ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#719096
02/12/2008 15:21
02/12/2008 15:21
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
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BTW - the handling stuff that I have been doing has not been cheap, I could have built a solid 450bhp engine for the same money I have spent so far. Oh I know, I'm guessing (hoping?) it will be a lot cheaper in a few months to a year when it's all tried and tested kit though ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) Well done for all the hard work though, I hope you get the set-up you want/ deserve ![bow](/forum/images/graemlins/default/bow.gif) I never was all that happy with the billy eibach kit though. That GB kit sounds very tasty indeed ![yum](/forum/images/graemlins/default/yum.gif)
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Kelv27]
#719137
02/12/2008 16:18
02/12/2008 16:18
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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Does that mean that with a lowered car (Eibach+Bilsteins), the camber should be more than -1.2? ???? are you asking if with that setup the camber will rest at -1.2 without any adjustment? If so then the answer is no.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: Trappy]
#719143
02/12/2008 16:20
02/12/2008 16:20
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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When I've finally got it setup right you're welcome to try it out and see what you think... ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#719147
02/12/2008 16:30
02/12/2008 16:30
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,607 Malaysia..Glasgow at heart
Kelv27
Forum is my job
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Forum is my job
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,607
Malaysia..Glasgow at heart
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Does that mean that with a lowered car (Eibach+Bilsteins), the camber should be more than -1.2? ???? are you asking if with that setup the camber will rest at -1.2 without any adjustment? If so then the answer is no. No i'm asking if -1.2 would be a good figure to go for as a balance between bite and tyre wear considering the car has been lowered.
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Re: even better handling?
[Re: ]
#719152
02/12/2008 16:40
02/12/2008 16:40
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
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When I've finally got it setup right you're welcome to try it out and see what you think... Now there's an offer I may well take you up on ![laugh \:D](/forum/images/graemlins/default/laugh.gif) Something else I found interesting in your GB thread was the reference BMS made to the roll centre of the coop being low enough as standard. I've done a little research and found various articles on the subject but I require a more 'reader friendly' explanation ![loser](/forum/images/graemlins/default/loser.gif) I read something about the difference between centre of gravity and roll centre being important and that this gap gets bigger as you lower a car, but it went all fuzzy there... Here are a few bits I need clarification on; 1. Why is it a bad thing if it is too low and what effect does it have on the handling? 2. Can this new suspension set-up skirt around this problem by only dropping the car 20mm?
F****** b****** thing...
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