Hi.. I have couple of questions.

I wish to know whats the maximum power that I can run on 2.0 20vt with standard internalns (not forged). Engine has been reffited with brand new parts (oil pump, new bearings, piston rings, gaskets, belts etc..)

Setup I'm gonna be running is GT2871R (trim48, a/r.68), FMIC, Walbro 255lph, full Supersprint, 3" DP.. I expect ~350HP at 1.5b

Now, I'm wondering Is there any other thing that has to be changed? Injectors? FPR?
Will the head gasket hold the boost?

Also it's gonna be mapped on unichip. Should it be mapped ontop gtec1 or gtec2 or anything else?

Well.. Any suggestion is well met.

Thank you in advance!

And yea..

Whats AFR and EGT I should watch for?

Thanks.

i think that is has been said the standard internals can take around 310-320bhp max ???

AFR - Air Fuel Ratio and EGT... not sure.

Hmm reading this, from 16vt workshop sticky.. It doesnt really stand..
"Turbo Upgrades - when upgrading to a bigger turbo please keep in mind that standard pistons are generally expected to only handle up to 300hp-320hp"

Mate has 16vt with std pistons (running bigger inj., cosworth turbo..) and car shows 338WHP at dyno. Car is now running good for year or so.

Problem is, I have no one to give me advice on 20vt.

Misspelled.. I know whats afr&egt. I was thinkg what values should I watch for. Whats the maximum egt and WB?

350 is just starting to push your luck on a 20VT. with that turbo the torque is also likely to be pushing your luck somewhat

John..

What advice would you give me then?

Other mate has 20vt and gt2860r also mapped on unichip. Result is 285hp at 1.3bar and 305hp at 1.5b

I dont neceserily have to push 350hp but would like to have round 320-330. I think gt2871 is next logical step if i dont want to go for high boost.

So any advice?

Thnx

You could run low boost circa 1 - 1.2bar max and make 330-350bhp on a 2871R. At 7000rpm you only have to be making 263lbs/ft of torque to make 350bhp which would be barely tickling the turbo.

On a good setup you could be hitting 1.2bar at around 3200-3500rpm and hold it to the redline with peak torque around 300lbs/ft. It won't guarantee that the engine will survive but the torque, rpms and boost are modest therefore it is not without merit.

With STD internals that turbo is the wrong choice. You can't push it because the ringland will crack over time or a rod will bend. Why do people always wanna slap a big turbo on STD internals?

You will be disappointed have a read here:
http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=586911&fpart=1

Or you could look at Sparco who has made 393bhp & 299lbs/ft at a peak boost pressure of 1.2bar (dastek dyno) on a 2871R

Sparco’s is very good but has all the right mods to support the GT2871R minus the forged internal but I'm sure we can all agree that he is sitting on a time bomb. If he did go forged he could be pushing 400ft/lb like Nigel.

Daeron, Sparco is a rare example of a car that has lasted. There have been far too many here that has gone pop with much lower power figures. I would set the bar at 320BHP & 290 FT/LB so either go forged or get a smaller turbo is my advise.

which turbo?

what housing, what trim?

thnx

My car is currently running 321hp with a GT2860RS A/R 0.64 and stock internals, running without any problems...

Does the way the torque is delivered affect the life of the bottom end? Does Sparco have a well set up EBC & a live map?

From the above thread, it seems WF is running a PRV at over 300bhp. I'm guessing the torque curve could be much smoother with an EBC, helping to prolong the life of the std internals.

I'm just curious as it seems the bottom end max torque/bhp varies from just over 300bhp to just under 400bhp. I'm wondering what Sparco has had done to keep his engine alive under the 2871R?

me too

The other thing that reduces the life will be high rpm lift off, as it can cause problems with the small-end of the rods. That could happen on a 300bhp coupe with a 7500rpm limiter tho.

Welformed's Coupe is still going, but there has been quite a few 20VT piston failures recently, including my own! Which was mapped, with an EBC and also aided by Aquamist!

Really depends on how much of a risk you want to take. I was quite lucky in that a piston went. If a rod goes its pretty much bye bye engine!

A smoother torque curve would probably help in preserving your rods, but heat/det are the usual causes of piston failure. I had an EGT gauge to keep an eye on temps, you don't really want it to be going over 900 degrees.

I would also choose a different turbo over the 2871R, it will come on boost quite late without headwork!

I've just h2ypr's Thread on engine failures:

Interesting Read

and you know what happened to Ross' car?

My view is that anyone with over 300bhp on standard internals is running on borrowed time.

The only way to have that sort of power reliably is to replace the pistons and rods with quality forged replacements. I know of 4 people on this forum who I predict will have engine failures probably due to ringland failures by christmas.

I'll probably do another group buy after summer is over...

It depends on the way you drive you're car...

there isn't much point in having a 300bhp+ car if you aren't going to use it occasionally IMO

Spill the beans, who?

you're one of them

Really?

Better stop downshifting to 2nd at 90mph then!


</joke>

Are all the common types of engine damage more likely to happen the higher the revs?

A 2871 s the wrong turbo for that power level.

Go for a 0.64 housing GT28RS. I have been running over 300 bhp on standard, but balanced internals for a good while now - but I have not gone over 1.35 bar of boost, and the car has been mapped with safety in mind.

if you pop a G28RS on a coop and a plug and play chip it will go bang - this is either through too much boost, or poor fuelling - or a combination of both.

Unmapped car....

good point!

WF's coupe is not running over 300bhp though is it?

You need to think about making the engine as efficient as possible before ramming more boost through if you want reliability on the standard internals - free flowing exhaust, headwork, etc.

The gasket is fine, the injectors would be maxxed at over 300bhp, but with a 3.8 bar regulator and if they are in good shape then 350bhp can be fuelled.

I would also suggest that you make sure that the fuel pump has a straight voltage feed to it.

I'd go for a GTEC 1 as a base chip if you are going for a unichip. Or go for a live map.

No don't think so, I just made that point because a couple of people were asking about Welformeds setup with the PRV!

And then we have Jari that has over 400 hp with standard internals

See RR section for more details.

The bottom line here is that there are a lot of variables to consider.

It is perfectly possible to nuke an engine at under 300bhp (which I have done) as the mapping was out - if I had not given the car a long blast through 4th gear on a track the engine might well be still around today. Take a standard coop and screw the boost up to 1.8 bar and it will make 280 bhp and last 5 mins.....you get the idea!

You have to take into account fuelling, advance, boost, torque delivery, rev limit, fuel pump, injectors...etc. IMO there is naff all point having a car with a 7,500 rpm limit if you are only going to use it for pub figures.

If you want to go for big turbos and 350+ bhp then do it properly, but be prepared for things to go wrong. if you are not then dont mod the car!

I drive the car every wekend and take it to the track ocasionally and it never lets me down, never had one single problem with the car! What I meant to say is that, most of the time when there's a problem with the engine it's the drivers fault, when I feel something is wrong i check everything to see if there's no problems, Always keep an eye on the A/F ratio, always use good oil in the car, dont get crazy with Turbo Pressures( the max pressure that my car ever runned was 1.2 bar)... etc
It's very easy to try and do things the easy way, more turbo pressure = more power = BANG! if you know what i mean...

If you're cautious with it and don't drive it in a "destructive" way, it can last forever! even with 300bhp and stock internals, you just have to make things properly...

Some interesting thoughts on this thread...

These threads always end up the same way......long but anyhow.

The mapping doesn't affect the pistons as they are not breaking due to incorrect fuelling or advance which leads to high heat and det as none of the failed has been melted or detted but are failing at the ringlands. This is the weak point of the standard piston and as JohnS said high rpm can do it as ring flutter begins especially on a down/misshift and the fatigue of the material used is why they are on a time limit. You have more chance of the ringlands going before any other engine component so if your goona get forged piston then it would be pointless not to get the rods aswell as the next weakest link is the rods bolts. For those running high power and std internals well done but also good luck

Nope - I blew a nice hole in the side of No. 4 piston, it was melted to hell! I was running 1.3 bar, the only diagnosis I had was the car was running lean and detting.

So if it ran lean and detted a forged piston would have ended up the same. If your map was OK then the piston would have broke at the ringlands sometime later.

Why?

The bottom line is that if you want to go for it on standard internals then more fool you... and if you believe that it won't break also know where you're going to get the money from to fix it if/when it does.

Totally agree with Johns comment above. If you do choose to go for 300+bhp on standard internals, make sure you treat the car with extreme care and make sure that you put a little by each month for the inevitable rebuild.

You might be lucky, and it may last for 18 months with that sort of power, or it may only last 2 months. The bottom line is that if you increase the engine power by 50% or more, the standard engine components are going to be stressed beyond their tolerances.

Det is an engines worse nightmare and no piston in the world can stop it. Det can kill an engine in less than a second. A forged piston is designed to be stronger and more heat resistant than cast but not against det. If your engine died due to det then the same would have happened to any other forged piston.

The basic difference between the cast and forged piston in the 20VT case is that it will not break at the ringlands and that is all you’re buying them for, reliability not anything else.

The mapping doesn’t really affect it as long as the fuelling and advance is correct that’s why I say if yours didn't det/melt then it would have been fine until the ringlands decided to give up.

OK - I did not quite get your wording. Makes pefect sense now, my point was that if the map on the car had been right then the engine would have been fine for a good while.

I know that it's perfectly possible to kill forged pistons through det - it seems that most people think a forged engine is bullet proof, which is not the case, and bad - or indeed no mapping is most the most likely cause of engine failiure IMO.

It's OK we are on the same wave then.

Tunning your car and not getting it mapped/checked is just as bad as not getting forged internals. In fact getting forged internals and not mapping is an even bigger mistake.

If anyone thinks that they can run a 300+bhp Coupe engine without getting it mapped, they are totally mad!

I, and most others here, would assume that the basic requirement when running a highly tuned engine is that the fueling is mapped correctly. If anyone thinks they can fit a GT28RS, FMIC, etc, etc and just run a GTEC chip and go whizzing off down the road, well.... It can only end in tears!

Not always.

Different if you work at a rolling road.

It only needs mapping if the fueling isn't right, so check the fueling and then decide.

Markus never had his car "mapped" beyond using a wideband and adjusting the fuel pressure.

These are the cars I can think of that are still running 300bhp+ on stock pistons/rods:

3yrs+
_Tom_ (Ringy) - 312bhp
Dan20vt - 328bhp
Whittler - 323bhp
Sheikhs - 344bhp
Jari - 400bhp

2yrs+
Busa1300 - 330bhp
Akeme - 334bhp
Suba - 344bhp
Jamiepm - 330bhp

There are quite a few others (especially on the continent)and of course many that lastesd 2-3yrs before going pop So it depends, do you spend out now or 2-3yrs down the line?

Yes, Flea is correct only mapping if AFR & timing is out.

That's all true but the original poster has rebuild the engine and not gone forged. Bolting on parts to get high hp on an unopened engine is one thing as you know it will go pop later on down the line but to fully rebuild the engine and not go forged is careless.

Let’s now do a list of those that have gone pop due to stock internals.

forged pistons are actually slightly more tolerant to det because they less brittle (but this does depend on the silicon content). You can also get surface treatments (during and post manafacture) to both forged and non-forged pistons to improve their det absorbtion.

What you say above is true but ultimately you don't want to be anywhere near det regardless of the piston. The coatings strength is the difference between blowing the pistons within 1 second or blowing it within 1.5 seconds . Det is nobody’s friend no matter what.

true!

IMO if anyone wants to push their coupe over 300+bhp they can

Of course do a compression test & leakdown test

also it depends on how you drive it
eg; on boost all the time

Ben

If you can´t afford tuning then don´t do it. And that involves everything from changing turbo to repair the engine etc. It´s very simple folks no magic beans or stuff like that

So you mean I traded my cow in for nothing?

Magic beans






100% agree

I'm currently getting parts together to get a forged engine
built up

And that will go in when mine goes pop

Ben

damn it people..

why coudnt you just lie.. somethin like:"yea sure, you can push 400bhp on a stock engine.. just go for it"

now I have to come up with 1500 euros to get it forged :angrysmiley:

You can add to that list those that gone Pop with Forged Internals! If things aren't done right, it doesn't matter if the engine is forged or not!

Forged Engine isn't bullet proof, for 300bhp, it's not needed, I agree that if you're doing a rebuild and planning on tuning the car, it's not wise to fit stock internals, but if the engine is running right why open it to go forged?

Talking about mapping it, my car is running on a G-tech2 HF, Checked the Fuelling, it was running a little bit lean from 6500rpm to 7000rpm, so remapped the fuelling on the G-tech2 HF and everythings perfect know, bought an innovate LC-1 just to keep an eye on everything!

If my engine lasts at least for 2 years I would be very pleased with that, and by that time I will certainly fit Forged internals so that next time instead of lasting 2 years it can last 4years, cause it will certainly break, the only thing about it is that it will be more tolerant...

Just another question, by Forged engine you mean what? fit some forged pistons and rods and thats it??

with 1500€ thats all you're going to buy, theres a lot more that should be done when going forged, or else everything else will collapse if you know what i mean...

If you're going to do things right get ready to spend at least 3000€...

My car has been running in the high 200's for 3 years, now it's about 300 bhp (getting it RR'd on sat) and I dont plan on taking it any further than that.

It's unmapped running GT28R. I usually drive off boost, and rarely explore the top end of the rev gauge. 5000 miles a year, 91,000 on the clock.

If it goes pop I cant afford a rebuild, but it's perfect at the moment.

How long do you think it's likely to last?

Do you think this kind of power will kill it over time?

one you get all your mods I would recommend getting it mapped. be worth it IMO!

A while. They normally go pop when they've been driven fairly hard and on boost ALOT.

Got all my mods already, everything is fitted and working... no more Civic Type R's blasting past me on narrow country lanes!

Even if it runs perfect on the RR with no trace of det, and perfect fuelling at 1.3 bar, would mapping still make it safer or more efficient? That £500 would be very happily spent on the bodywork instead...

This is the whole debate, I personally feel that its fatigue and the more miles the car has done the more likely it is to break at the ringlands if you try and add performance. Lets face it these days its very hard to find a decent coupe with low miles that hasn’t been modded/ragged so time has already taken its tole on many of the engine by now.

The way you describe your driving style and power level it should be ok but who knows. Also what’s the point in having all that power if you don't go and push it every now and then because you’re worried about breaking it? I'm not trying to scare people and say changed to forged but the fact is there is no definite answer as to when/if you will break. If it does go pop you either give up on it or rebuilt it going forged.



If it does then mapping would only squeese a bit more power out and a waste of £500 IMO. Mapping is only need if a chip dosen't fuel/spark correct or you want to squeeze every last drop out of your engine.

I'm not worried about breaking it, and that's not the reason I dont push it very often.

When I do briefly give it the full beans every now and then it's really something

"I don't explore above 5000rpm" ha ha

Caught ya , I knew you couldn’t have a 300BHP car without giving it some . And so you should that's what it's there for, enjoyment

Just out of intrest if it does go pop will you give up or re-build?

Since when did rarely mean never?


If it goes pop then it stays in my garage until I decide what to do with it.

I would then have to decide whether to remove and sell all the tuning and aftermarket goodies, which would then fund returning it to standard including an engine rebuild or replacement, or sell it like that with a broken engine, everything else intact, or sit on it and save up for a while / get a better paid job (then forged)

That's the sprit

My car running without any problems too, 343HP and 340lb/ft

Mods:
GT28RS A/R 0.86 (1,55 bar), Vecco FMIC, 440cc injectors, Colombo&Bariani Cams, 3" Downpipe, 2,5" Stainless exhaust, Ecumaster maped on modified Gtec2 chip, Walbro 255, Greddy RS Blow Off, Helix organic Clutch, K&N Filter, Autometer gauges (EGT, Boost, Oil temp.), Bosch map sensor.

You want to be very careful runing 340lb/ft on standard rods

Nigel bent a rod runing 330lb/ft

Ben

My friend (wilkuw from fccuk forum) has 373Hp and 335lb/ft with std internals, and his car running without any problems too.. ..but I will think about forged rods and pistons.