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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#624299
03/06/2008 22:11
03/06/2008 22:11
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Nobby
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I know this may sound stupid, but can you tell if the damage is fresh?
Could it possibly be from when you had first rebuilt the engine and were running it in unmapped?
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#624307
03/06/2008 22:16
03/06/2008 22:16
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TipoBoy
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TipoBoy
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I guess it could have been but I didn't go over 3k rpm and ran with zero boost.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#624328
03/06/2008 22:36
03/06/2008 22:36
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Webbo
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Webbo
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How much advance was it running?
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#624540
04/06/2008 10:52
04/06/2008 10:52
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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Yes the cost per hour driving is horrendous! I'm sure a Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini would be cheaper to run! However unless I fix the engine the whole car is useless. John Seeing the car you're trapped. As you say the car would be useless, it's just too special (and probably rarer than a Ferrari or Lambo in N.America) not to put back on the road. Besides you promised me a ride if/when I come over to visit my lad
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#624622
04/06/2008 13:14
04/06/2008 13:14
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Trickymex
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Trickymex
Unregistered
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i would'nt put it all down to det yet to be honest
Alot of what look like det marks were more than likely caused by parts of the piston floating around
Looking at the piston the squish band is at least 30% smaller than standard as a result there is a lot less material holding that part of the crown to the rest of the piston, i am not sure why you would make it smaller TBH??
Also what squish clearence was you running
it would also be interesting to know the CR and what advance you was running plus boost levels
Ricky
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#624821
04/06/2008 17:26
04/06/2008 17:26
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TipoBoy
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TipoBoy
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The tuning issues including advance and boost levels were discussed in this thread.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#624897
04/06/2008 19:13
04/06/2008 19:13
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Vas
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Vas
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John,
did the turbo come unharmed out of all that??? where did all the piston bits go, surely turbo blades must have been battered really badly...
Odd, v.odd!
V.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#625001
04/06/2008 21:36
04/06/2008 21:36
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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Yes the turbine blades were mangled, I sent the center section back to ATP and they sent me a replacement. I thought it was just the spark plug insulators going through the engine and now we were not seeing that problem any more I thought it was safe to put the turbo back on. Unfortunately the same thing happened again so I need another centre section. It costs me $80 to ship to ATP then ATP change me $550 for a new centre section and shipping back so it's not something I want to keep doing!!
On that subject it might not have been heat that had previously damaged the insulators, it could have been bits of the pistons hitting them!
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#625167
05/06/2008 01:28
05/06/2008 01:28
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
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any photos of the cylhead (combustion area...)? It seems like parts of the piston have broken/sheared off I very much doubt it's anything else than mechanical. Mind you some of the "breaks" look rather shiny and untouched. V.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#625232
05/06/2008 06:12
05/06/2008 06:12
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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No unfortuately I didn't take a picture.
The valves looked untouched except one exhaust valve which wasn't sitting quite right on the seat so that one is definately bent. The top of the combustion chamber was pitted in a similar way to the pistons but not as much. The head is being sent away to be cleaned up and made like new. I'll let you know what the report says.
John
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#625432
05/06/2008 13:18
05/06/2008 13:18
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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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:(
any photos of the cylhead (combustion area...)?
It seems like parts of the piston have broken/sheared off I very much doubt it's anything else than mechanical. Mind you some of the "breaks" look rather shiny and untouched.
V. No, detonation caused that damage. The piston might have been week in that area - like I said you need a drawing to see how thin that area will become. Det occurs most common on the inlet side which had the largest cut outs coupled with what maybe a weak design the det pressure mechanically failed the piston - but det would have been the root cause. For mechanical piston failure high rpm something like 8k would have to been seen and I doubt that in this case.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#625451
05/06/2008 13:36
05/06/2008 13:36
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Trickymex
Unregistered
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Trickymex
Unregistered
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:(
any photos of the cylhead (combustion area...)?
It seems like parts of the piston have broken/sheared off I very much doubt it's anything else than mechanical. Mind you some of the "breaks" look rather shiny and untouched.
V. No, detonation caused that damage. The piston might have been week in that area - like I said you need a drawing to see how thin that area will become. Det occurs most common on the inlet side which had the largest cut outs coupled with what maybe a weak design the det pressure mechanically failed the piston - but det would have been the root cause. For mechanical piston failure high rpm something like 8k would have to been seen and I doubt that in this case. I agree with this, det has a caused a week piston design to fail and as a result the parts of the piston have caused alot of damage on top of the det damage. Just look at a standard piston and you will see that the squish band is larger and as a result has more material holding it together
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#625478
05/06/2008 14:28
05/06/2008 14:28
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
Unregistered
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what brand are these pistons? the custom Barbz JE ones?
V.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#625482
05/06/2008 14:35
05/06/2008 14:35
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TipoBoy
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TipoBoy
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They were the CP Racing ones from Barbz.
The link to the piston specification has been removed until I know who owns it.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#626008
06/06/2008 11:43
06/06/2008 11:43
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Hi John, I will mail you seperately also. But for info the piston spec request sheet is not synonomous with a validated full CAD design, while the material and production methods maybe CP's high quality they do not validate the design as to do so they would have to do a full cad drawing. For instance I can show you a Guy Croft example piston design one of 3 pages; this enables not only calrification of weak points it gives a document to compare what is returned, in many cases you cannot assume what you get is actually what you asked for. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/sediciRich/D18lowcomppiston_example.jpgRich
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#626039
06/06/2008 12:32
06/06/2008 12:32
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Trickymex
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Trickymex
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thats exactly what is needed
Guy croft puts a lot of effort in to every little job in an engine such as this, he will not rely on anyone else to do the job for him
this is one of the reasons why he is one of the best engine tuners in the world
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#626229
06/06/2008 17:16
06/06/2008 17:16
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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TipoBoy
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Thanks Rich. To be fair the spec sheet I showed was what I got supplied in the box from CP Racing. It's not necessarily what they used to build the pistons. For example there is nothing about the valve angles or sizes for them to know how big or where the cut outs would need to be.
I'll speak to the guys at Lightspeed to see what their piston design is going to be like.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#626315
06/06/2008 19:18
06/06/2008 19:18
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
Unregistered
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is it OK to have these drawings on the forum guys?
V.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#626321
06/06/2008 19:31
06/06/2008 19:31
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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TipoBoy
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Very good point. I hadn't though about the intellectual property. I've removed the CP Racing piston drawing until I find out who owns it.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#626383
06/06/2008 20:39
06/06/2008 20:39
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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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I wrote to Guy first, and obviously he's allowed to ask me to remove it. Notice there are a lack of dimensions as I asked for something for illistrative purposes.
Rich
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: JohnS]
#626545
07/06/2008 11:14
07/06/2008 11:14
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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I think the issue is the canadian fuel, but to get det on all cylinders is pretty rough going. The piston has a weak spot but as Guy said to me something has to take up the detonation pressure either the pistons or the head gasket. I'd say for that fuel a lower comp and thicker - minimum thickness between 1st ring land and VR. Its not a weak piston per se but it has an area which sholud be beefed up or rather made to a different breif.
rich
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: JohnS]
#627359
09/06/2008 12:02
09/06/2008 12:02
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Calm down. The weak part for such combustion pressure is at the VR, clearly, and no pistons can take sustained det. FEA is fine but I assume only looking at cyclical loading not the compressive force that det could cause thus the weak point location is only a function of the applied load. Sure something is going to give way, but I wonder why the det wasnt heard, sure a trace amount before such a significant event? To make anything thicker you have to make something thinner perhaps- Id say reduce the rod length and put the pin lower, not point chasing capacity if its going to fall apart. In this case lower the Pressures or temp for that fuel or watch it happen again. (this assume the RR operator did all he could to minimised such an occurrance)
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#635557
24/06/2008 22:24
24/06/2008 22:24
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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I've heard some news from Lightspeed. The new 2.4 crank I fitted to the engine is now worn 5 thou. They want to regrind it to 10 thou. However I see on the FAQ section here that you can't regrind a 16VT crank due to loosing the nitride hardening. I presume the same is true for the 20VT crank and I need to buy a new one.
John
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Now in pieces!
[Re: ]
#635562
24/06/2008 22:28
24/06/2008 22:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,729 N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,729
N.E Scotland
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There was a thread about this in tuning just yesterday John. The outcome wasn't particularly decisive although I remember reading that they are nitrided and cant be re-ground in a previous thread.
If you do require a new one, I'd suggest speaking to Johnnybravoturbo as I think he has one no-longer required.
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Bent Valves
[Re: mattB]
#640554
03/07/2008 17:57
03/07/2008 17:57
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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This is becomming an expensive rebuild. It turns out the head has 4 bent/damaged exhaust valves and 5 bent/damaged intake valves. Ouch. No other news John
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Bent Valves
[Re: ]
#640575
03/07/2008 18:37
03/07/2008 18:37
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Matty
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Matty
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Ouch.
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Bent Valves
[Re: ]
#640670
03/07/2008 22:02
03/07/2008 22:02
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,485 Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG
Club Treasurer Member 311
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Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,485
Lightwater, Surrey
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Canadian fuel is a little unusual in that they use MMT ( wiki entry) as a high octane additive as opposed to something like MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) which is used in Europe and elsewhere but mostly banned in the US due to groundwater contamination from undergound storage (no problem outside the US, I blame poor housekeeping/maintenance). In the US they now use ethanol or the (similar to MTBE) compound TAME. I wonder if that is significant? Sorry to hear about the damage, but in the pic of the new piston it did strike me how little material there was between the bottom of the valve cut-out and the top ring
1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus 2008 Ferrari F430 & 2017 Fiat 124 Spider
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Re: 2.4 Canadian Coupe - Bent Valves
[Re: DaveG]
#640681
03/07/2008 22:34
03/07/2008 22:34
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Few questions: Who built the engine in the first place? Are you sure it was built correctly? Are you sure it’s det as it’s very strange to see det on all cylinders like that?
Engines don't go wrong if they are built and mapped correctly. I feel your pain as I had to rebuild my engine a second time due to poor workmanship (incorrect clearances to blame) however if you wanna do something right you do it yourself and that’s exactly what I did the second time round along with a trusty mate to be 100% sure.
There are many people who run the 2.4/2.5 conversion from Barbz and they don’t have problems so I wouldn’t blame engine components as they have already been proven. I wouldn’t blame fuel either as a good mapper should know the fuel their using. I hope you sort it out John it’s just another pain that you could do without.
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