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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: Nigel]
#516458
08/01/2008 16:42
08/01/2008 16:42
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Gralecoupe
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Gralecoupe
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Gralecoupe - having heard your explanation of the swirl pot gurgling noise (inlet at the bottom, outlet at the top) I'm certain that this is your problem. I never said this? The pump is pushing water up the inclined core until it reaches the outlet, which then "slurps" some coolant, which then drops back down the core.
No, you've misread, the coolant goes in at the top, out at the bottom. Quite simply, you are drastically reducing the effciency of the core in two ways
1) part of it is filled with air, rather than coolant
2) what IS in the core isn't getting out
No2 would explain the point that you hit us with 5 pages ago - the core is heating up your coolant (however, its almost certainly not the fault of the core - ANY CC core will warm up if the coolant isn't circulating properly.
For a week or so after my Pace install, I effectively had a ChargeHEATER, as I had so much air in the system.
PS - is the pump pushing coolant into the core, or pulling it out? (ie what is the sequence of components?) IIRC, the pump should be before the core, not after it (although technically, its just a circulation, so it shouldn't matter) the only REALY important bit is that the pump should be at the lowest point of the install.
Yes, I can agree with this, but the water is circulating - just not 100%, maybe there is air in there somewhere, (the coolant is getting past it) I've just got to find out where and how to relieve it. Yes, apart from the pipe feeding it the pump is at the lowest point, it's below the swirlpot (SP) and shoots the water straight into the underside of it, the outlet is by the side of it (in the bottom) so it cannot draw air. The sequence is: CC - Rad - pump - SP - CC. As far as I know the pump both pushes and pulls, I asked the question earlier, but got no reply. David should know, he sells them. I'll have a poke around, see what I can come up with and report back.
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#516511
08/01/2008 17:29
08/01/2008 17:29
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chargecooler
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chargecooler
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Right.
Firstly, what target power were you aiming for. The thing with choosing the CC core is asking yourself if your making power with high boost or low boost, and it goes back to my point about CFM. If you target HP is 300bhp, but you need high boost to acheive it, as in your case, then you need as long a core as possible, as you are trying to cool high charge temps that are moving fast. If you have a bigger engine that runs lower boost, then a shorter core is fine.
Am I right in saying your running a 6x6? If so that is only 6" of core length trying to cool 1.5 bar of boost. You probably would have had better results with a 4x10, with an extra 4" of cooling length.
Regarding the installation, you may as well pull it all out and start again, or if you can't change it to the way Im going to instruct, then you might as well live with it, or change. Any compromises will result in higher charge temps.
Firstly your header tank and water level in the tank MUST be at the highest point in the system, higher than any CC, or hose point. I can see that your tank is below the scuttle panel level, and the water level is a bit below that, yet you have the white angle connected with your temp probe in at a higher point.
Any air from the swirl pot/headertank is RISING from the tank to that highpoint and collecting, and even worse, you are taking a temperature measurement from this point - if there is air there it is wholy inaccurate.
Then you have this water with air in it trying to be forced DOWN again (not good) into the top of the CC, so you are collecting air at the highst point in the CC. Once again, with your water flow, your trying to push it down the core, and once again air will not travel downwards. Basically, you have a big build up of air in the top of the core and the rightangled pipe, and in either directions, the air cannot get out as the pipes go DOWN either side of this point.
Next, why is your CC black? The come polished for a reason. Colours radiate heat in the exact same amount as they aborb. Black absorbs all and radiates all. A mirror absorbs none and radiates none. But you need to take into account the surroundings. I have said that the cores will always be cold to the touch when pumping water, so this means that the water in the core will ALWAYS be colder than the engine bay temperatures. So likewise, there is no heat to radiate from the core, only to absorb from the bay. You MUST have that core polished again.
Pipework, again, black pipework will just absorb heat (especially on the cold side of the rad) so switch for clear and you will also be able to see your air locks too.
Radiator - This is not one of mine or reccommended by PWR. Its smaller than advised, and I can't tell if its a good aluminium design. This rad needs to be as efficient as possible. Once again with colour, if your water temps in the rad are lower than the ambient temps in the engine bay, then it can only absorb, not radiate heat.
You also should always run a fan on the rad, otherwise how is the water going to cool when at slow speeds and aid recovery. Weve said in the past that CC's are good for drag because they have instant cooling whereas a FMIC needs airflow to get to maximum efficiciency, well its no different with the pre-rad. We are trying to get water temps as low as possible, so it needs constant cooling.
Pump. The pump MUST be the lowest point in the system, and pumping cold water, because its denser, less likely to have air in it, and its better for the pump. The pump does NOT pull. It is a pusher only, it is not self priming. So it needs a weight of water behind it - if it doesnt get this is will surge and pump air around again.
So in summary, get the tank above everything, try and get the CC low and straight, get it polished, get a better rad, fit a fan, move the pump, and change the pipework (also, you can upgrade to 25mm pipework which will increase your pipe system volume by 70%)
EDIT : If you are, do NOT use a swirl pot with an inlet at the bottom and outlet at the top. All this means is if the water level sloshes around when driving past the top point, the CC system just takes a big suck of air from the top of the tank and sends it round the system. The tanks I supply have inlet and outlet at the bottom, so the water flows through as it should, and any air simply goes upwards to the top of the tank.
EDIT 2 : Just to add, your swirlpot and 'coldside black' piping is situated between a red hot turbo, and a hot water radiator, so again, that will pick up heat. I hope the swirl pot isnt black too.....
Cheers
Dave
Last edited by chargecooler; 08/01/2008 18:30.
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#516524
08/01/2008 17:48
08/01/2008 17:48
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chargecooler
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chargecooler
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This is a good read on the Alpine forum regarding various customers with CC's talking about installation, and helping a guy with a Renault Turbo2 get his charge temps down to under 30c. Various people talk about the same points I outlined above. http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/p...r=asc&start=195
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: JohnS]
#516534
08/01/2008 17:59
08/01/2008 17:59
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chargecooler
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chargecooler
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Can you slap a purge cap on the header like the coupe coolant system has so it can bleed itself if there is excess pressure (caused by trapped air) The tanks I sell have that.
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#516541
08/01/2008 18:05
08/01/2008 18:05
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chargecooler
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chargecooler
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I must raise this point though that the temperature probes/displays used in that video are as good as toffee, and you can't get any reading with ANY accuracy from what they display.
On that video, the car runs from a standing start and keeps accellerating and then backs off. From start the temperature is 43c, he then continues accellerating for about 20 seconds to the point he backs off whre it reads 83c, but then the temps keeps rising upto 101c for 10 seconds after he has backed off running no boost and still only falls to a low of around 96c, still off boost...
So how can you work out what peak temperature it reached when 'on boost'?
Cheers
David
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: Mark_S]
#516613
08/01/2008 19:31
08/01/2008 19:31
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Nobby
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Nobby
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The sequence I have on mine is: Swirl pot (highest point) bottom hose to Pump (Lowest point) Prerads CC Swirl pot top hose
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: JohnS]
#517029
09/01/2008 04:19
09/01/2008 04:19
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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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This thread is now getting interesting, please let it run begbie.
Rich
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#517767
10/01/2008 01:17
10/01/2008 01:17
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strat24v
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strat24v
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The pump is cavitating-sucking air, i assume not a self priming item? The pump should be fitted down low so its always gravity fed. Only then can you start and bleed any air locks out. Is the filler/header of a swirl pot design? Dump the black paint too, that will soak up huge amounts of heat. As has been said, install it properly then pass comment after.
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#525936
21/01/2008 04:09
21/01/2008 04:09
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Gralecoupe
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Gralecoupe
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Well work took over and I only got chance to have a look at the system this weekend. I studied closely what was going on for some time before realising the only minor problem was that the system is sealed 100%, this meant that it was pulling all the water into the swirlpot and causing a low point (of air) in the highest pipe, this was because gravity couldn't do its job and vacuum was present in the system.
I replaced the white plastic elbow in the pic with a Y piece and some pipe, then filled the system full. There was water running round it before, it's just that it had to run through some air in the pipe that made it surge and sound odd, now it was perfect, all I could hear was the pump running.
Out for a test and it still gave around the same figures.
I stripped it all out and fitted the air-air cooler back in and saw an immediate and massive reduction in air temps, I tested this (OE) cooler before at Donington and it took 4 hard driven laps before it heat soaked and the temp stuck at 65'c, I very much doubt it flows as well as the CC though, but it wasn't noticeable.
17 pages and we're back to square one, I'm happy that I've done all I can now and given it a fair chance, but unless you are fitting this in tandem with another cooler or using it with chilled water in a drag car it isn't much good IMO.
<<Sits back and waits for another barrage of excuses>>
This has to be my last post on the subject, I can say no more, you are not the only ones bored with this thread.
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#526103
21/01/2008 16:32
21/01/2008 16:32
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Macki
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Macki
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ähhhm.....is it really so difficult to understand ?????
YOUR INSTALLATION IS ABSOLUTELY FAULTY (and looks quite dilettantish to me)!
dave told you in detail what you have to modify to make it run properly. read his post again (page 16) !!!!
you did eliminate ONLY ONE of several faults.....nothing more ! you are far away from being impartial or objective....
you´re happy with your fmic solution...ok fine. but stop blaming on other solutions that will work great too if installed correctly !!!!
macki
Last edited by Emjay; 21/01/2008 17:17. Reason: Shout, bold and profanity - bit excessive
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#526153
21/01/2008 18:11
21/01/2008 18:11
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strat24v
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strat24v
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Warm pre rad air straight onto the black chargecooler too? Grale, maybe you could fit a sleeve over the cooler with a 10mm air gap all round and feed that sleeve from a scoop at the front, cure the heat soak problem.
Please sort the installation problems, get it to work as it should, then if it doesn't work to your liking you can pass negative comments after. Its not fair to dog someones product when the installation isn't correct??
The only way to eliminate all air is to disonnect charge pipes, remove all components round it then kinda tumble it about slowly as the water circulates till all the air comes out of the system, remount it and connect the charge pipes back up.
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: AlistairM]
#542529
15/02/2008 19:08
15/02/2008 19:08
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Gralecoupe
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Gralecoupe
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I would suggest reading the thread. Failing that, I have a couple of good books that I can recommend.
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Re: Chargecooling!
[Re: ]
#542539
15/02/2008 19:21
15/02/2008 19:21
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,422 Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG
Club Treasurer Member 311
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Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,422
Lightwater, Surrey
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I would suggest reading the thread Yes, it's rather amusing Did you ever sort out your "issues"? You can PM me if you prefer BTW I have a proalloy FMIC and TI SIP which replaced the previous Pace SMIC and CC
1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus 2008 Ferrari F430 & 2017 Fiat 124 Spider
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