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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436913
17/09/2007 03:27
17/09/2007 03:27
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Matty
Unregistered
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Matty
Unregistered
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Pace FMIC and running rich are your main problems I feel.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436932
17/09/2007 03:53
17/09/2007 03:53
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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What are the possible causes of boost dropping so much at the top end? If my redline boost was 1 bar instead of 0.7 bar would that difference correct the fuelling ratio and give me a good BHP figure at 5500rpm? I'm considering exchanging it for a totally standard coupe and never touching modifications again! I'm out of my depth to be honest
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436940
17/09/2007 03:59
17/09/2007 03:59
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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If you got 1 bar and changed the intercooler as Matty says, it would make a huge difference.
Ross
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436946
17/09/2007 04:05
17/09/2007 04:05
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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OK, thanks how do I get 1 bar? what does "resetting up the boost" involve?
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436948
17/09/2007 04:06
17/09/2007 04:06
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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Well there is 2 problems as far as i can see.
1. The boost controller isnt setup correctly. 2. There is a boost leak somewhere causing problems getting to desired boost.
Resetting up the boost is putting all the settings back to 0 and running the car on base boost. See what happens. It could be a problem with the actuator?
Ross
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436974
17/09/2007 05:31
17/09/2007 05:31
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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I need to put it back on that same RR again for a longer session, editing boost gauge settings on the fly, and monitoring the effects it has on the fuelling, it's the only way I'm going to be able to understand what my car is doing, rather than asking any more stupid questions Thanks for all the advice! Matt btw, I think the floor mat might have been jammed under the accellerator pedal ( ) when they did the test, preventing full travel. I remember it was pretty far up and I put it back in position before I left, but in my adsent mindedness didnt think anything of it at the time. That still wouldnt explain my overfuelling and poor boost holding though...
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436978
17/09/2007 05:46
17/09/2007 05:46
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StradoZ
Unregistered
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StradoZ
Unregistered
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I think there was a small fly under my pedal preventing full travel on mine If you're going back to Racing Line, they do a longer and more thorough test for £76.38 inc VAT or something like that, I was asking the guy about it.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#436985
17/09/2007 06:34
17/09/2007 06:34
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Doctorfrag
Unregistered
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Doctorfrag
Unregistered
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sorry I had to rush off yesterday, just got back now. My results were 215 bhp at the fly, 180 at the wheels, with: Gtech 2 GTi-R Hybrid Turbo Pace FMIC Straight Induction pipe K&N Cone Blueflame 3" turbo back with decat Forge DV006 Walbro 255 fuel pump + wiring mod Blitz i-D 3 boost controller just under 1.2 bar at 4500rpm according to the graph. I was expecting upwards of 250 bhp so 215 was disappointing, just had a full service at motormech and engine and turbo are in excellent condition. I was told the reason it was down was because it's running rich. 2000-3750rpm = 14.5 ~ 15 AFR 3750-4250rpm = drops to 11 AFR 4250-7000rpm = drops to 10 AFR Any advice? Would I be better switching from Gtech 2 to Gtech 1, or a different chip altogether? I cant afford £500 for a live map! Thanks I ran over 270bhp with a slightly inferior but very similar setup at two other rolling roads, your richness could be down to a mild boost leak, but would only account for 10-15 bhp or so loss I'd suspect, the rest is down to the rolling road reading low I'd suspect. Where does the "500 rpm" out come from? Joe
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437003
17/09/2007 13:35
17/09/2007 13:35
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Actually Joe, Matt's low readings will be down to the fact he is only holding 0.7bar to redline... between 4300 and 7000rpm it drops down to 0.7 bar according to the graph Someone needs to post their graphs
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: Flea]
#437004
17/09/2007 13:41
17/09/2007 13:41
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
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i've got my graphs but can't upload to photobucket at work. I can email them to somebody if they would be kind enough to uplaoad them.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437010
17/09/2007 13:56
17/09/2007 13:56
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MABR
Unregistered
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MABR
Unregistered
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i've got my graphs but can't upload to photobucket at work. I can email them to somebody if they would be kind enough to uplaoad them. I'll PM you my email and post them up for you.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: Flea]
#437019
17/09/2007 14:19
17/09/2007 14:19
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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Actually Joe, Matt's low readings will be down to the fact he is only holding 0.7bar to redline... between 4300 and 7000rpm it drops down to 0.7 bar according to the graph Someone needs to post their graphs I'll post my graphs tonight. How much should the boost drop to at redline on a totally standard 20vt running 1 bar boost?
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: Flea]
#437029
17/09/2007 14:33
17/09/2007 14:33
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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I'm not standard, but if a standard car drops to 0.7 bar as well, then I should be getting more than 215 bhp if everything else is in order... If I had a boost leak then could that cause it to still hit the desired boost but drop off more steeply? Will increasing the Gain on my boost controller help keep the boost at the top end or make it harder to keep boost? I've seen conflicting reports on this one using the search function.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437035
17/09/2007 14:42
17/09/2007 14:42
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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Once warmed up the water temps never go above 90 or below 80. Boost graph is as follows: 3250rpm = 0.3 bar 3750rpm = 0.7 bar 4300rpm = 1.2 bar I dont know which sensors do what, too many of them! There is something very wrong with these values - on that turbo you should see over a bar at 3,000 rpm. You need to eliminate your boost controller as the source of the problem - if you have a mechanical valve then put that in and see if there's a difference. Failing that then join the two hoses up that go to the boost controller's solenoid and you should get base boost (do you have a 0.6 or 0.8 bar actuator?) Once you're sure if the controller is the issue (or not) then you can think about where to go next.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: Flea]
#437037
17/09/2007 14:44
17/09/2007 14:44
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Doctorfrag
Unregistered
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Doctorfrag
Unregistered
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Actually Joe, Matt's low readings will be down to the fact he is only holding 0.7bar to redline... between 4300 and 7000rpm it drops down to 0.7 bar according to the graph Someone needs to post their graphs LOL!, that's what I get by scan reading at 130am!! Yes, as Matt used to get I used to see a lot better at redline, the Pace FMIC certainly caused a boost drop at higher revs, and caused peak power to be delivered earlier, less boost does mean less power, obviously. I did run 290bhp with the unichip and a setup v.similar to Matts, running a bit more ignition advance, maybe not quite as much as his Gtec2, so I suspect we can say that Matts results are certainly not representative. Matt, seeing as it was running a lot better before your boost leak, and now you get poor boost readings after the boost leak, checking very carefully for a leak is the way forward. Check the big thick fat pipe running to the inlet manifold, especially for cracks underneath there, mine had split once underneath. Check all your boost controller pipes, and all the hoses. Even with the Pace FMIC you should see better boost levels earlier and higher up. Joe
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437044
17/09/2007 15:05
17/09/2007 15:05
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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Once warmed up the water temps never go above 90 or below 80. Boost graph is as follows: 3250rpm = 0.3 bar 3750rpm = 0.7 bar 4300rpm = 1.2 bar I dont know which sensors do what, too many of them! There is something very wrong with these values - on that turbo you should see over a bar at 3,000 rpm. You need to eliminate your boost controller as the source of the problem - if you have a mechanical valve then put that in and see if there's a difference. Failing that then join the two hoses up that go to the boost controller's solenoid and you should get base boost (do you have a 0.6 or 0.8 bar actuator?) Once you're sure if the controller is the issue (or not) then you can think about where to go next. I have a 0.8 bar actuator. Is the boost controller's solenoid the silver box under the dash or the black one in the engine bay? I'll join the pipes up as I dont have a standard valve. Thanks
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437049
17/09/2007 15:19
17/09/2007 15:19
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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Matt, seeing as it was running a lot better before your boost leak, and now you get poor boost readings after the boost leak, checking very carefully for a leak is the way forward. Joe, it didnt feel like it was running any better before the boost leak, here is what happened: July: boost gauge shows 1.35 bar dropping to 1.2 bar at the redline. SBC settings are about 12 and 60 for gain and set August: boost gauge pipe from dump valve splits causing comp surge and boost leak. After this is fixed boost gauge reads much lower (less than 1 bar) but car feels just as fast as it did before. I increase the boost controller gain and set to get the same boost gauge reading as I was getting before, the car feels MUCH quicker which makes me think that it was never really holding 1.2 bar at the redline, I cant see how that can have been possible. September: It still feels as fast as it has always done. If it's true that I should be getting 1 bar by 3000rpm even with the laggy Pace FMIC then something is definitely wrong. Could be the boost controller as above which I will attempt to diagnose tonight
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437055
17/09/2007 15:31
17/09/2007 15:31
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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OK, here are your first two runs Eldinho... RUN 1319bhp & 300lbs/ftAFR & Boost270whpRUN 2325bhp & 280lbs/ftAFR & Boost276whpOK, some quick observations Your AFR is pretty rich on the first run, engine too cold perhaps? Your max boost is also only 1.3bar so it's not surprising you are down on power compared to Joe's 1.5bar runs. The 300lbs/ft torque is pretty good, it starts to drop off as you would expect towards redline as you run less boost. The torque curve actually follows Joe's previous PTS torque curve very well the only difference being less boost equals less peak torque. Your second run has better fueling and runs more boost but is down on torque however it doesn't drop off as quickly hence slightly more peak power. You will notice how your fly power has exactly 49bhp added to the wheel power in all three of your runs. This is what I mean about the DynoDynamics rollers not using a coastdown method for fly power but simply adding on a fixed number. In reality your wheel power is the most accurate figure for these dynos and is the preferred choice in USA. Can I ask if all runs were done in 3rd or 4th gear as it has been hand written as a correction on two graphs with 3rd gear. The gear used will effect transmission losses and whp i.e. you get higher wheel power in higher gears. This is shown by you getting 6whp more in your 4th gear run compared to your 3rd gear. Based on this you can't really add the same fixed transmission losses as they have done but that is the way DynoDynamics do this. Most users like the whp figure as it is very repeatable and therefore accurate to monitor changes/modifcations. All in all, good results and should be happy that all is well with the car
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: Flea]
#437057
17/09/2007 15:36
17/09/2007 15:36
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MABR
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MABR
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IIRC they used 4th gear on most of the coops but did run a couple in 3rd.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437062
17/09/2007 15:41
17/09/2007 15:41
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StradoZ
Unregistered
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StradoZ
Unregistered
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They ran mine in 3rd for some reason
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437064
17/09/2007 15:42
17/09/2007 15:42
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: Flea]
#437065
17/09/2007 15:43
17/09/2007 15:43
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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Leighton
As you say on the 1st graph it shows that the boost peaks at 1.3bar. but when i checked what the blitz had peaked at it showed 1.46! This run was done in 3rd. I then asked if the next run could be run in 4th.
Also the engine wouldn't have been cold, it didn't actually have that much time to cool down as i was on the rollers quite shortly after i had arrived from an hour journey.
On the third graph the AFR is quite similar to the second run, fuelling around 11AFR.
After the first run I could have quite easily put the boost up, but didn't feel it was worth risking anything for what i thought was a misreading RR. And also i was expecting the boost to have peaked a bit higher in fourth. I forgot to reset the peak boost on the blitz after the first run, but it never peaked over the original 1.46.
But when peaking at 1.46 I would normally expect the boost to be highr than 1.2 at redline, it is usually around 1.25 on the road.
Mark
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437066
17/09/2007 15:45
17/09/2007 15:45
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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Just to add the third run was done in third gear, they did this without me knowing. I think most of the runs for everybody else were in 3rd.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437070
17/09/2007 15:49
17/09/2007 15:49
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MABR
Unregistered
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MABR
Unregistered
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IIRC they used 4th gear on most of the coops but did run a couple in 3rd. Then again I could be wrong.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: Flea]
#437081
17/09/2007 16:07
17/09/2007 16:07
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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The blitz seems pretty accurate when i have compared it to the boost gauge, although it is quite difficult sometimes as one is in bar and the other psi. The other thing that concerns me is that on all 3 runs the line stops at different RPM! I'll crank the boost up next time
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437083
17/09/2007 16:11
17/09/2007 16:11
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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The other thing that concerns me is that on all 3 runs the line stops at different RPM! That is normal, as soon as the operator starts to see bhp drop (or even stop climbing) he will stop the run. Obviously this could be at different rpm points based on the current variables.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437085
17/09/2007 16:12
17/09/2007 16:12
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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Black one in the engine bay - join the hoses up and you should get 0.8 bar with that actuator, if the boost is lower than this you have a leak or dodgy actuator.
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Re: RacingLine RR 15/09/07
[Re: ]
#437086
17/09/2007 16:14
17/09/2007 16:14
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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I'm pretty sure he hit the limiter each time!
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