yeah well imagine wasting another £500 getting there and back too lol

you are beginning to make me think im mad.. ive always been worried about making the trip and something letting me down

Rob and Barbz suggested I ran the 16VT @ 3Bar instead of the 20VT @ 3.8Bar

Ok so now I need to forget about the rods as my bigger problem is now the clutch

So gotta keep my torque at 300lbs

Are you running a walboro fuel pump TurboJ as Im going down the 16vt injector route aswell

I really recommend the paddle clutch. It is the only option if you want to go for big power and torque. Yes, it is different, and can be a little harsh, but I suggest you go for a drive in a car with one fitted and see what you think.

It will grips like hell, so you will never loose any of those valuable horses you are going for. I think you will be wasting your time and money to get Perfect Touch to map the car without a 100% perfect clutch. That is why I waited so long to have my car mapped.

As for the limits of the standard internals, I'm happy to sit back and see just how far the limit can be pushed. However, I think that much more power will meerly expose the limits of the grip / traction.

TurboJ, though your Bravo is going to be lighter than a 20vt, the GT29RSR will be quick spooling, I have heard that it is more progressive than the GT28rs which is very hard hitting, so it might be easier on the clutch, but I suspect that eventually 320+ lb/ft even in your setup will be too much for the Walkers/GTA combo.

Joe

Yes and with the wiring mod.

Just got off the phone with Barbz and he said to map the car until it starts to slip then back it off a bit, He said it should hold 320lb/ft but as they are re-con who knows and depends on how I drive after. He also said if I want more power remove the organic disc and replace it with a paddle disc from Helix which can hold up to 340ft/lb. So I will have a Helix/Walkers combo (Not quite the same as a proper Helix clutch). Then the next weakest link is the rods but I won’t change them as you gotta stop somewhere.

Can’t wait to post my results after mapping.

I would advise anyone looking for clutch to seriously consider the group buy going on as in Heinzsite I would have gone with it.

Thats what he told me too which what i meant by slightly detune it!

I have a walkers paddle driven plate sitting in my garage done around 2k miles, i have yet to bin it just incase..

I have just spoken to PT and i am booked in for monday the 18th

Ross, do you really think it's a good idea to push your luck?

I've been lucky recently tho. *touches trees and tables*

Nah after speaking to barbz, im gonna get the rsr and see how that goes. Then if i want more, go for fully forged.

Ross

Rod snapped and then sliced through the block coming out of both front and back and smashing the oil pump clean through the sump! And set light to the car big time

IIRC 413bhp @ 5500, 390 lb.ft @ 5500. 1.6 bar all the way to 7000 rpm, but basically couldn't force the air through the engine at that level. Cutting the boost to 1.1 bar on next engine only cost me 7bhp and torque curve to 5500 was almost identical

Impressed that anyone would want to see how much power you can run reliably wuth standard internals. The only way you'll know for sure is to break and engine or two! I've done more than my fair share of destruction testing - 4 engines so far, still counting (and two gearboxes, three turbos....). Wouldn't wish that on anyone

a bloody expensive handlin that would be

Fingers crossed if something goes then the block will be OK. Nyssa - I've lost one engine due to poor mapping so I do know how if feels. Who mapped the car to 1.6 bar when the engine could not flow that level of boost? I would have thought that a rod going like that would be more a product of that monster torque than the excess boost?

Hmm I am running almost 1.6 bar boost (all the way to 7000 rpm) on forged pistons only
didnt knew the engine could not flow it?

I think the standard rods are stronger than most people may actually think. I think that the weak point is the rod bolts and it’s a real shame that uprated rod bolts have not been made for the standard rods. My engine is fully balanced and the rods have been shot pended and polished and balanced to absolute zero. It’s a risk I’m willing to take as we all are pushing the coupés limits further and further.

Clear your PM's Ross.

I’ve spoken to JohnS about the standard rods + bolts – he thinks the bolts are the weak point, and given how much knowledge and experience he has with coops I’m inclined to agree!

If you’re going to replace the bolts then you may as well do the rods though – wont be a lot more, and I believe the parts come as a set including the rods and bolts.

Clear yours!!! Lol.

Problem with stnd internals around this range is 2 things.

1. Its russian roulette to when the engine is going to let go, not if.

2. Turning the boost up and changing a turbo, isnt really the best option of gaining usable power. No disrespect to the guys with the figures as they are impressive, but the fact that the gt28r with the 347lb/ft is only getting 319 bhp, shows that his setup is unable to flow higher up the rev range. No doubt that 347lb/ft is a peak and not a constant. I can guarantee that Myself and Subas car has a wider spread of torque and we both have a higher bhp up the rev range.

Ross

Hi Ross ,

Wait until you see the graph of GT28R RR , it is really amasing, from 4600 rpm up to 7000 rpm whole time +300 bhp !!

Although I have peak power much higher, in reality his car is much "drivable" than mine, okay in quarter mile and "Top Speed" I'm faster, but in allday run, his setup is much better . Anyway high (peak) power feels so good... .

- Jari -

Yeah, would be interested to see the graph.

Ross

@ Jari

My question is that these are figures whilst on the RR with wideband, det-can, EGT etc. The reality is you can run any power on the rollers as every thing is constantly monitored. Are you brave enough to run these figure on the real road?

Just to remind you all I did bend all 5 std rods and snapped one (may well have been rod bolts) on std rods with 408BHP/ 400lbs/ft at low boost (1.25 bar). They were properly balanced up to 8500rpm so the issue was that the rods cannot take that power. It did take a fair few miles to happen but if you want to be reliable I would take 15% off the power I had if you want to be safe. I did do a couple of stints with race fuel and an extra 30lbs/ft but to be honest I very much doubt that caused the damage.

Chances are if a rod goes it will take out the block and may also take out the crank and sump with it, or even head so it more or less writes off the engine.

The only other comment I would make is depending on the dyno the readings might be a bit generous. Like if I went to G-Force or Powerstation I could possibly get an extra 30-40BHP

John

Well thats stopping me from doing anything silly.

Ross

The way your 2.4 delivered torque in the low and mid range is very different from a 2 litre therefore I would suggest this is a considerable factor in how you bent your rods! Big torque, low rpms and high gearing are going to truly test the rods to a much greater capacity than high rpms with 40-50lbs/ft less.

P.S. I really think you should try Powerstation... you may be a bit dissapointed though

Is this not on Johns heavily modified 2 litre engine he’s speaking about. Before he went 2.4?

85% of 400lbs of torque is 340lbs which is just about what was said at the top of this thread.

Claudio and Rob at Perfect Touch don't recommend going above 320lbs of torque on standard internals, as they have seen at least 2 engines fail above that. PT have one of the most conservative dynos around so this all seems to make sense.

So, if anyone wants to go beyond these figures, don't be surprised if it all ends in tears!

John ran with standard rods initially as the forged rods weren't available in time for the engine build.

As far as what is safe, I would say it very much depends on how you set up the car and power delivery. The Finnish boys have bigger balls than most of the UK lot and are starting to push the boundaries further and further. I belive Jari has been running big boost i.e. 1.6bar+ and 340-360lbs/ft, for well over a year now on standard internals. As a tuning company you would give conservative advice unless you really felt confident but as individuals we can go for broke. If you happen to get some blowby or break a rod then you can go forged but you could say why spend until it happens... if it happens.

For a FWD car the coop really does like big power so I say go for it

Where's the feckin RR charts

I wanna see tooo!

Ross

I have them also but I don't know how to post

Jamie

I am running 1,5 - 1,6 bar boost for everyday use, but of course dont push it much in the hot summer days... I believe the torque is only around 340 Nm dont know the hp figures either i am guessing 380 - 400