I've been looking at the Vs threads alot and chatting to my mates and people about the Coupe etc and from reading alot of things on the forum and chatting to people, the Coupe seems to be quicker than alot of cars with similar weight, power & torque.

The question really is why?!

For instance if you get a Seat Leon Cupra R chipped to 265bhp and similar torque, the general consensus appears to be the Coupe is quicker if it had the same power and torque with a roughly similar weight too.

I know alot of people refer to 'wasting' another car by pulling a length or two, which is obviously a slight twist on the truth, but why is the Coupe quicker if it's weight, power and torque are similar than most?

When a couple of my mates have visited this site to look at vs threads etc, they can't believe some of the stories(in some cases nor can I) because a car with similar weight, power and torque should be roughly similar - shouldn't it?!

Mark

Long gearing can be one explanation, but perhaps a better explanation is that you are reading the accounts on a FIAT Coupé forum.

If you were to read the accounts on another car-specific forum you might find the old coop doesn't fare as consistently well in their accounts.

there's more to it than the figures - the whole bhp/torque curve of the car needs to be considered. However bear in mind a quarter mile sprint. A standard coop does 14.5 (assume launch is equal in all cases) a 300 bhp coop does around 13.5 - so it wont waste a standard coop over this distance. Anyone claiming they 'waste' a car with about the same figures is simply exagerating - either that or the other car is not trying - or the coop has gone for it a few seconds earlier etc. you really can't compare on the road properly.

there have been claims of 'wasting' scooby STI's with a similar powered coop - just dont believe it.

Something to do with the gearing, maybe???

LOL no one had post when I typed this with two fingers

Is the turbo on a standard Coupé larger than ones on new cars like Focus, Golf GTI, Leon, but not Subarus/ Evo's

The replies did arrive fairly quickly!!!!

I know the VAG 1.8T's have a tiny little turbo which spools up quickly and on full boost about 2700rpm, so they are up and running fairly fast. I'm not sure about the Focus ST as it's a fairly similar engine to the Coupe, I'd imagine it's quite tuneable too, similar to the Coupe.

I can understand Scooby's be slightly slower in gear due to them being heavier and having to push all 4 wheels around, but launching I'd imagine they would be very good and then the Coupe might claw some space back further up the mph.

I would what out there is virtually exactly the same in speed as the 20VT, Alfa GTA 3.2 is apprantly fairly similar, but they have 250(ish)bhp don't they?!

Mark

it's the driver, obviously!

I have friends with some nice cars, Jag XJS, Lexus IS something or other, Merc CLS and they can't beleive how quick the coupé is when they are in the passenger seat. all reckon it's faster that theirs.

Though whether they ever redline it from 20 mph in second is another matter

My mate's Focus ST is not as quick as a standard coop, I mean noticeably different, I think it's to do with the latest hatches being about 100KG's heavier for a start.
A load of the posts in the VS section are total bull though.
Apart from Goose, who really IS the fastest in the world

That's because it FEELS so much faster - I recently drove an e46 M3 - my car on 1.0 bar feels faster, though I doubt it is.

A friend of mine has a BMW 540i (4.4 V8 - 280 bhp with silly torque)- again at 1.0 bar boost (320 bhp ish) my car feels much faster and is a bit quicker, but side by side there's not a lot in it!

Aerodynamics? Aparently the Coupe has a .3 drag coefficient.

Which is pretty damn good. And dont forget it is above 60 where the Coupe is at its strongest which seems to back this up.

Have to say, its actually neck hurting quick in second too.

In fact it is just a hell of a car. You cant get anything like it for looks, go, or price. Chuck in the stability, pretty decent handling and you have a hell of a mix.

And you can put 4 large guys in it when you want to head of to the pub!

I agree with most of this however, if i race a sti or whatever, its just no competition at all. The bhp is the fly figure remember. How much of that is actually making it to the road?

For instance, guy bought evo 4 with 280bhp stnd. Kept asking me for a race. Never done it. He went for a rolling road after getting some work done and he was 300 at the fly and around 225 at the wheels (IIRC) whereas i have around 291 at the wheels.

Ross

At what point though does the aerodynamics become more important when driving?! Is it right from the start line or does it have more impact higher up the mph?

Mark

The reason why a standard coupe is quicker than modern hatches is power/weight ratio. All modern hatches have more safety systems, 8 airbags more advanced strucure etc this all adds weight so the modern hatch can have same bhp or even more bhp but is generally much heavier.
As the coupe weighs 1307kg most modern 'Hot Hatches'weigh in excess of 1400kg-1600kg.
In profesional drag racing 1kg lost is equilvent to 1bhp gained but thats for 800bhp+ I would say for us 1kg is equilvent to 0.35bhp. Or this could just be rubbish and its due to the majic 3rd gear

Just a quick look on Parkers for some info regarding weight....

Fiat Coupe 1310kg
Golf GTI Mk5 1336KG
Golf GTI Mk4 1289KG
Seat Leon Cupra R 1376KG
Focus ST 1317KG

So there isn't a huge difference in weight really from the few I randomly select, not enough to be a noticeable difference anyway I wouldn't have thought - all front wheel drive too.

It could be the difference between a fatter guy and a skinny guy or a full tank of fuel against a 1/4 tank for the difference in most of the above.

Mark

I think the 20vt is very fast for it's bhp,weight,torque etc. If you compare 0-100mph times to similiar powered cars.
CTR over 16s, WRX 215bhp bug eye, over 16s, etc etc.
The only car i've seen simliar in power that gets very close is the 98-2000 model scooby turbo 14.6 0-100mph (20vt 14.5)but don't forget the scooby gets to 60 about 0.5 sec quicker. Shows the 20vt is quick when moving.
However these times do vary from test to test, & then you got to be able to drive the car right to obtain these times.

You sussed it.......... We iz all good divers.

does any1 know what a standard 20vt would get on a r/road
session? do they tend to get more than the manufactures claim of 220bhp? as this happens alot with other manufactures.

I didn't realise the CTR's are 16's, I thought they were late 14's or early 15's or something!! I suppose with a lot of those it's because they have 4 wheel drive, you can just drop the clutch and go. But once up and running, it's a weight issue and putting the power to all 4 corners too as you say slows them over the Coupe.

Mark

Most are pretty much spot on actually I think. I don't know of any that are much above 220bhp without having anything done at all like a Gtec or filter etc.

Mark

Mark

A lot of standard cars have been known to make 240 bhp on the rollers

The only figures i've seen for a ctr were all around 16.2-6.
This weight issue, the 20vt coop isn't exactly lightweight around 1300kg isn't it. The scooby turbo weighs a little less & thats 4wd. (as if you didn't know)

I had to pay money to get mine to that, typical!!

I didn't know that.

Mark

Power to weight of coupe is very good, at the wheels. Seriously, look at even the flywheel figure and its better than all current hot hatches etc. This = faster car.

Mark - I'm pretty sure this is because the actuator on some will hold more boost at the redline. it's been known for manufacturers to tweak the actuator (raising base boost) a bit on their test cars to get a bit more out of them.

The Focus ST is around 10kg's heavier and very simlar power/torque therefore the power/weight ratio should be virtually the same but.....Coupe = quicker car, how come?!

Mark

PS I've done MANY side by side tests with mates cars, modded coupes, M3, EVO's, 350Z etc. Coupe always does well, fact.

However also had a hard time against such things as Civic's 200bhp TDI ibiza. Exactly as fast, and that did a 14.6 1/4 mile.

My dad has a WRX Bug Eye and I ruined it when it was standard.

that's because Civic's Ibiza had 300 lbs/ft

Yup, the Coupe is quicker than most others in it's class, as I've probably done similar tests against other cars as yourself, but how come it's quicker?!

Mark

Better power to weight ratio, esp at the wheels, as stated above.

The answer to this is simple for a no of reasons as follows:-

1. This is a one make, one model forum. Such forums are well known for bias.
2. Quite often in the Coupe Vs section the other car is often either new or worth a lot more than the Fiat. The driver of the other car is therefore unwilling to risk pranging his pride and joy to prove a point to an old Fiat.