Where to start... well I guess it was back in the Summer when I ditched the v-band for a full 5 stud 3" downpipe and lost just about all low down torque making off-boost driving less than urgent So much so that it made my coupé very black and white i.e. it was either on or it was off! So back to the drawing board, I either revert back to my previous setup, change to a smaller turbo or really have a good think Enter the magician, he needs no introduction, pure genius in a car... Barbz

So we started talking about what could be done and of course the obvious 2.4 conversion sprung up but while I am not a poor man lets just say I couldn't quite commit myself that far Sooo, what to do? Well we both believed that the 2.4 had created a little bit of a chasm between its smaller 2.0 brother. There was no reason not to pursue the 2 litre with a vengeance, it simply required a bit of thought to create the right mix… so that’s what we did

Roll on 3 months and we arrive at the breaking point. The mechanical element had been masterfully put in place by Monsieur Barbz, all it needed now was an engine management up to the job. Going standalone was an option but I wanted to try and force the issue by keeping with the standard Bosch Motronic and Unichip combo which had thus far served me so well. Possible… well first off was running bigger injectors, 440cc the weapon of choice, so this immediately creates an issue with idle, throttle response, closed loop etc. Then we have the fabled MAF creating a restriction at the top end and therefore allowing enough air to flow and fuel accordingly.

At this point I should thank Suba for introducing FCCUKers to the new and undisputed heavyweight champions of Coupé mapping… Perfect Touch The holy grail of Coupé mapping, live mapping, is now a reality! This was much more than a remap, this was a “new” map for a “new” engine going further into the Bosch Motronic than ever before. Rob is the mapping guru at Perfect Touch, a more dedicated or skilled mapper you will not find anywhere. In fact Rob is to mapping what Barbz is to engine building So what could be done? Well the Unichip was tried but just wasn’t capable of such dynamic management. This is not surprising as while it is very effective for fine tuning the standard fuelling setup or even slightly greater, it is unfortunately out of range for more extreme requirements. So the only resource left was for Rob to truly get to grips with the Bosch Motronic… this was no easy task!

After 4 days of battling with bytes and code, relentless exhaust fumes, a multitude of never ending questions from myself, Rob created a brand new base map allowing for perfect idle, throttle response, lambda readings, ignition timing, rpm limiter and POWER I now only have the Unichip controlling my water/methanol injection which works great This is a complete first in coupe tuning (at least in the UK) where the Bosch Motronic has been successfully modified to accommodate such a highly tuned engine. Nice one!

So the results… if you haven’t already scrolled down to this bit

Wheel Power @ 1.5bar

392bhp @ 7000rpm

Flywheel Power @ 1.5bar

420bhp @ 7000rpm

355lbs/ft @ 5500rpm

Not too shabby for a 2 litre Fiat on pump fuel without any nitrous There were so many runs conducted that is hard to recall and certainly most were not saved during the course of developing the new map. The best run from memory produced 398bhp @ the wheels For some reason the fly power is a bit lower than normal due to very low transmission losses of 6%!!! Looking at Suba and TurboNick’s results at Perfect Touch they both had 15% losses, which is just about perfect for FWD, and Nigel and Highwayman had 10-11% which is a little on the low side… but 6%?!!

If we use the Puma racing FWD formula of wheel power +10bhp /0.9 (approximately 12-15% transmission losses) then this gives a fly power of 447bhp and 370lbs/ft… not that it matters as the business end is wheel power

On the road I have to admit that it’s borderline ridiculous… just perfect then Off boost driving is now a pleasure with very good throttle response and super smooth cruising. Thankfully the Apexi can limit the boost in first and second so as to get maximum traction but when 3rd gear lets go I would not be lying to say that it feels quicker than first gear in a standard coupe and requires a strong arm to keep it in check. The top end is really quite something with a huge power band that just keeps holding all the way to redline at 7750rpm… and all at just 1.5bar Yesterday driving back it was horribly wet which meant 4th gear was lighting up the wheels (proper wheel spin!) Just want some dry weather now… maybe at Silverstone

So there we go, another coupe tuning story I like to think I played a small part in this tale (project manager me thinks ) but in reality it comes down to some seriously skilled people pushing the boundaries Barbz is the man, nobody knows more about the coupé and quite simply nobody does it better. Coupled with our new friends Rob and Claudio at Perfect Touch, coupé tuning has just turned another page

Well you did what you said you were going to do all those months ago, well done Got no idea about all that gobledegook in the middle but the figures look nice

Bagsy a ride at Silverstone. Purely for comparison purposes obviously

Excellent ~ 420 bhp from a 2 litre without nitrous...very impressive, I bet these slippy roads are a real test of nerve, but a whole lot of fun.

This live mapping is really picking up steam. I'll have to save some money for this and an EBC once i get my new exhuast.

.....good work there Flea

flea,
without giving away to much info what else have you added to your set up??

Jamie

Nice one Flea ! Can't wait to see you in action at Silverstone next week, keeping the Exiges et al honest . Hope you've got your brakes sorted .

Phil

what turbo are you running then flea?

I take it they have ironed out the live mapping problems they had with Jimbo's car (not being able to access certain maps or something like that)?

And the crown is stolen and firmly on King Flea's head What a monster

Flea: Have you changed any hardware or did you just do a Live mapping?
Which octane did you use?

Awesome Flea, you must be so pleased.

So, other than the 2.4's, you've now got the most powerful 1998cc engine in the UK, possibly the world, you lucky git.

Nice one.

As said by Matty, awesome Flea!!!!!!!!!!!

392 @ the wheels is insane for a 2ltr FWD maybe its time for a proper LSD?

So whats the full spec of this engine/turbo/ancillaries?

Oh and well done Flea

Let's see if my plans will beat your output

I stand corrected, apologies Nyssa.

Hmm, same engine but it's not a coop though. So Flea is still the daddy

Excellent results Flea

So, is anybody going to tell us what mods is Flea running?


V.

I think its all hush hush at the moment. Knowledge = money. So i think your gonna have to speak to Barbz and ask how much and get it actualy fitted yourself before you will know. Impressive power dude.

Ross

Is this not up to date then? The RR results match.

No. because he got 392 at the wheels this time!!!

Ross

h2ypr,

I don't even have a 20VT, I just wanted to know basic things, like, is he running stock internals at this power???
Besides, I'm too far away from Barbz for him to do any work in my car

cheers

Im in the same position. Too far away. But thats the way it has to be! I doubt hes running standard internals. Just because of the power.

Ross

Fantastic results!!! I hear it is also relatively lag free which is even more impressive!! Good to hear that the Motronic is finally tamed for 440cc/min injectors too.

Holy fccuk!! Come on tell us what engine mods you have

Superb Flea..excellent!!!

Absolutely fantastic results!, I am going to have to get on the band wagon now!

What have you done to the engine and turbo,.. 3071r? is it?

Are you still running the dual map?, surely not, and are you using the unichip to control the WI activity, or just a boost switch?

and finally , have you dropped the MAF?

well done again!!

Joe

And is this on forged or finally standard pistons?
need the spec! as I feel I with my standard pistons struggling a bit , that I will need the magicians services myself in the new year

just wait till a manifold is made up to match

only a matter of time.....THIS is the real restriction

I feel a project at work coming on

.....all good shite & that

OMG!
Awesome, can't wait to see it, may even call off my request to the rain gods at Silverstone.

So the gloves are off?

My reign as "UK's most powerful 2 litre non nitroused road Coupe" has been rather short-lived.

Flea - I'd really like to know your spoolup figures and how you achieved it. My GT2871 is about as laggy as I can accept (spooling by 3k, 1.5 bar comes in hard at 3,500 - 3,600)

Rob was certain that my small turbine housing is causing backpressure, but I'm reluctant to go for the 0.86AR housing, as my lag will increase. However, maybe the 0.86 with a different exhaust turbine with suitably cut back blades would help.

C'mon - full spec please

Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! Fight !! etc

Top work Flea ! And I wouldn't be at all surprised if you didn't tell anyone the spec - surely that is Mr Barbz's info ?

PS Nigel, what "anti-lag*" measures do you have then ? You are getting the same spoolup, both in terms of gauge and actual push, as I am on my Junior setup ?

* no, I know you're not running actual anti-lag

Nigel - Just get a 100 shot of nitrous, and lie

Here is my graph

Take a look...

As for mods, well I just strapped on a gert big turbo innit

congrats flea!! seriously tho rob is a genius anyone considering getting there car mapped i suggest perfect touch are at the top of the list of places to go. they sorted my car out and havent even got it mapped, going there to get live mapping done soon.

Flea cummmm onnnn plzzz tell us ur mods pretty pretty plz wit a realy big cherry on top?

p.s 392bhp at the front wheels? is that s**t legal on the streets of england? lol

Damn thats a lot of lag...wonder how you still write the car has a lot of off boost response etc

Um, the last word of the title of that .gif file makes me wonder if Mr Flea has somewhat more up his sleeve than just his arm

So... you are only making 180BHP @4500RPM, is that right

Yeah I wondered also why the "fake" part of the title
But if the graph is correct, then its one lag monster, hence my previous post

Even if it is true, he still has an extra 750 rpm to play with than us

s**t man i bet that comes on well hard look how fast the power goes up in jus 6-700rmp from 4500 - 5200 he picks up an extra 170 bhp and 160lb of torque danm that mus be hard for the clutch, tyres and gear box! i love it! lol

He He... sorry guys just messing with ya Here's the real one...

Old vs New

Oh Leighton you little tease

incredible maping there, almost a linear increase in power, and where your previous torque fell off, it just carries on & on

massive area under the map, looks like a very driveable off boost coop also

...fcuk, I want my coop back !

good work there Flea, very impressed...

These graphs show the difference between 1.5bar and 1.6bar...

BHP

Torque

I get a little bit more torque @ 1.6bar but it drops off quicker. I'm not sure whether this is down to heat soak as these power runs are just one of so many that you simply cannot negate the effect the heat building up. I'll be getting a cold run at Powerstation as I always do after any major mods just to see if 1.6 bar can give a bit more

Incidentally, I am getting 330bhp @ wheels with just 1 bar

congratulations Flea,

you got two beautifully smooth curves there

cheers

V.

Looks like your extra revs aren't doing anything for you, as power has stopped rising before the normal 7k redline.

However, the extra revs WILL come in useful as changing up at 7,500 will drop you back to about 6,000 - 6,500, where you're still making loadsa power.

Without knowing ANYTHING about Flea's setup, my stab at a spec is:

Forged pistons & rods
Flowed head
GT30 or similar

ye same as above smooth as anything! superb!

Quote:

---

Looks like your extra revs aren't doing anything for you, as power has stopped rising before the normal 7k redline.

---

The extra revs will be doing a lot for him because it means he can stay in a shorter gear for longer with good power so will have better acceleration overall and it gives him a much wider powerband and so much better flexibility.

Going on Jamie's post a couple of threads down, it looks like there is.

While my power may not be building after 6400rpm it is holding peak power to redline i.e. a full 1350rpms of 420bhp power As John says, this means I can hold onto any gear right to the end as I am still in the sweetspot. The lower the gear the faster you can accelerate so having a wider power band allows me to take advantage of lower gearing for longer.

your curves look amazing flea.. *not those curves*

Fantastic results mate, well done!

this is for sure GT30 tubby power!

good work mate..

Hi Flea,

Concratulations from the North (Pole) , you have succeed excellent results!! You seem to have this "North Air" landed to UK too!

Now you have a 2 litre car, which really can compete against the 2.4 litre Coupes in 1/4 mile . I guess you can hit some 12.5s / +120 mph (normal street tires) with this power and go even low 12s with DOT approved slicks.
Next summer these will be also my goals .

I'm really happy to see, that the 2.4 litre is not the only way to go and also I think that with the "low " torque of the 2 litre engine will save some money, when we think gearbox, clucth etc.

Regards,

Jari

Great results mate (I'm very jealous )

Amazing power... Did you grind the manifold anything?

Great results. I heard about this last week as Barbz has had my car for the last two weeks. I'm going for the live mapping route as well now after talking to Barbz.

One question though, do you know of a better way to control the aquamist? I have the 2d system and DDS3, so I would like a method that would get the best of these without using a Unichip just for this. Any ideas?

Awesome results Leight. You'll be able to give me a proper kicking now rather than just a kicking (mildish one)!

presumably you're all forged now + flowed head?

Wow !!! it`s all been said already,but i`ll say it all again,great results,great torque curve,WELL DONE ......we have about the same spec (apart from turbo), been meaning to fit my bigger injectors and get it all mapped properly,but after Nigels hassles i just hung fire.......seems pefect touch have answered my prayers , need to get my *ss in gear now ,great result from a 2 ltr especially keeping it driveable too,must be `fun` to drive now

it WILL be done.....pronto like too

Nice work Flea - Quality stuff.

Any chance of posting a graph of a standard coop torque and bhp against yours? Just think it might be amusing to see

the biggest question, though Paul ,is the type of turbo Flea is running

My money is on a GT3071R to account for the airflow and effeiciency to run that power, or probably one of Barbz hybrids based on this design,.. ok Flea, so how much do you want to pay me for being right?

Technically a large housing GT2871r might *just* get there, but unlikely.

Joe

Joe,
I spoke to Barbz about this a while ago..he had a `few` ideas for turbo`s then .....so don`t think you are far wrong

I think you'll find it was Professor Plum with the candlestick in the Kitchen.

Nope................. Barbz, with a torque wrench, in the garage,but don`t tell anyone

and i`m off to work now ,why did i buy a new business again .oh yea ,so i can make my coupe faster

Maybe an HKS unit??? More pricey but plenty would bolt on without too much hassle.

Damn all those mods...If only I could afford em
Well at least I have forged pistons hehe

This means that the new owner of my engine can hope for 500bhp..........one lucky guy

As is customary for me after any major modifications, I went to Powerstation which I use as my base dyno to get another fueling check and power run. This allows me to check the fueling a few days after to make sure it's all still kosher and also to undertake a couple of cold runs on the dyno. My coupé was at Perfect Touch for 4 days and was on the rollers all day for three of them!! While this is necessary for mapping the heat soak in the engine cannot be negated so it's always useful to conduct a cold run when the dust has settled

I decided to run 1.6 bar today given that produced more torque at Perfect Touch despite it dropping off quicker than 1.5 bar giving a lower peak power. So a quick sprint up the M5 for 9.30am and on the rollers. It was a nice clear day with ambient temps of 10c making it ideal for a good power run

Run 1 @ 1.6 bar

480bhp & 367lbs/ft

Run 2 @ 1.5 bar

474bhp & 360lbs/ft

You can see my graphs here

Created a little bit of a buzz at Powerstation I can tell thee As Rob predicted at Perfect Touch, "This will absolutely piss 400bhp"

So that's the good news, the bad news is the auxilary belt tensioner bolt came loose on the way back which meant no power steering and no aternator power I forgot to mention that when Rob was road testing my car last week the aux belt totally shredded itself Luckily it didn't take out the cambelt as can so easily happen! Anyway, not quite sure what is going on here but Barbz is on the case

So there you go... no nitrous, no race fuel and all at 1.6bar which is pretty low boost compared to similar power from Evos and Scoobies etc. Just hope I can get the car sorted for Silverstone

Amazing results there Leighton, very impressive. Just do make sure it's 100% for Silverstone!!

Amazin. 60bhp from changin dynos. Need to try that myself.
What was the at the wheels power?

Ross

Frick me thats a hell of a lot thru the front wheels matey

Time for some launch control aka mavric stylee hey!!

If you get than from the 2liter block god knows what them 2.4 guys are going to be pushing out soon or 2.5 units!!

60bhp increase at the flywheel, 6bhp increase at the wheels!

Forget about catching the 2.4/2.5's up, you've now overtaken them all (albeit at higher boost probably I'm guessing)! IIRC Mavric's 500bhp was with race fuel? Well done mate!

It would appear you have less power at the wheels yet a higher flywheel figure than JohnS...anyone able to explain this?

Very true flea but have they been pushing their other components as much as you are doing now as i would be interested to see what barbz own engine or mavrics as the advancents with 20vt work have come a long way since the days the first 2.4's rolled off the TI line and were coming with 450bhp+...

.....ludricous power there Flea

as you mentioned, the major difference between the 2ltr lumps & the 2.4, is that the torque will be much more spread over the rev range ( more lower punch, and higher top end ) , so in a way, it will still be killing the g/box big style, but be less of a sudden crazy hubbub

...if you have the 6sp, kiss that diff goodbye

Really interesting stuff this. Looking at the graphs, I'm fascinated how it drives on the road (albeit that you probably back the boost off) as the engine seems to make less torque than a standard 20vt's peak torque figure until the north side of 4000rpm! That's why I'm wondering what your graph looks like against a standard coop.

Take the point about a big powerband

I’m sorry to say this but I’m a bit skeptical about the graphs/results it seems to over the top for me, better spool than a RS(albiet a .86 on vband downpipe) and 480 bhp I’m just not having it,but as the saying goes seeing is believing so, I really want to see the car do the business on the black stuff, or at least see some proper graphs not d.i.y exel ones, can you not post up the originals flea so we can all see, I just don’t believe you can get decent low down torque with that sort of power from a 2 litre, I would love you to prove me wrong though, so put me out of my misery and show me the original graphs, otherwise I will have to assume what I’m already thinking.

cheers dan.:D

Dan, dont forget this is another awesome development from Barbz @ TI and not Flea. Just face it, its way beyond your knowlegde & understanding, stick to studying compressor maps mate.

Big Turbo plus Big Ego = High Boost Hero

I can feel a padlock hovering over this thread.............

I'm watching this one Boys

Please keep it as a healthy discussion, I know peeps can often get jealous, but rememeber we all like to show off our beauties

Flea has on many occassions noted the Powerstation will give higher flywheel figures than elsewhere,.. its well known, as said above, it shouldnt take away from the obvious Barbz and Robs skills

Joe

I don't know why everyone's so sceptical of the sudden jump in flywheel figure! Fleas transmission losses *were freakishly low at Perfect Touch, they're now (assuming the wheel figure is roughly the same) about par for the course. Well done I say!

Agree. I've always thought the Powerstation figures looked too good compared to others but this tranny loss looks more in-line. Whatever, nigh on 400 @ the wheels is mental

Well done for pushing the 2.0 so far. Hope it holds up

Ok this getting silly as usual... I'd rather this thread wasn't locked so I'll open a new one to discuss the merits of rolling roads including Perfect Touch, Powerstation or whatever your local "most accurate in the country" RR happens to be

HI Leighton,

Really glad you backed up our results somewhere else mate, takes any of the questions away Even better when they read higher

Ive gotta say massive thanks on behalf of PT for Leighton leaving his car here, i came across a massive stumbling block with the live mapping on bigger injectors but given the time i had i managed to find the code and change it.

Thanks again

Rob

Agreed - this thread is to discuss Flea's undoubtledly staggering figures, not their accuracy.

Personally, I'm here to learn that Flea has suffered no ill-effects on the live-mapping done by Perfect Touch.

Every one of my Unichip mapping sessions so far has proved to be a waste of time and money as the ECU swaps base maps over the days following the RR session.

Claudio and Rob are desperate for news too - they've spent many hours with my car without success, so they would dearly love (as would I) to achieve its full potential and ensure it stays that way. I'm really sick of running base boost and suffering horrible fuelling in traffic.

So Flea - PLEASE give us all some detailed feedback on how the car behaves, not just at full throttle / max boost, but how it starts, how it ticks over, whether its lumpy, whether its fluffy picking up from tickover etc etc etc

One of the annoying things with my current setup is that when cruising at say 30mph in 3rd gear, I cannot bring the throttle in smoothly - its way too sudden. the higher the gear, the less jerky it is. In 1st or 2nd, its quite uncomfortable to drive at low speed - its either accelerating or decelerating - it just can't hold a steady throttle opening.

Well, the only thing now to make this a proper discussion is to talk techy bits

Leighton,... why don't you scan your Perfect Touch graph, and then at least give us some more juicy bits , i/e external wastegate, custom turbo etc etc,..otherwise there's not going to be a lot more to discuss??

I know you would need to keep Barbz secret designs secrets,..so we could just call the turbo a 'Barbz' super dragger king turbo stage 3 design!

@Rob ,..great job,..welll done..I think you could well have secured yourself a lot of business with the live mapping

Joe

@ flea

why don´t you only post the original graphs.......????
this would prove all the scepticals wrong and would end every discussion about this.....


macki

Why do you want to compare what the torque is at 4500rpm with a standard turbo?

Ok here are the "original" graphs...

Perfect Touch - Torque

Perfect Touch - BHP

Rob at PT wrote the wheel figure of 392bhp on the graph.

Powerstation - Torque & BHP

For some reason the operator at Powerstation stopped the run at 7165rpm even though power was still climbing!!

PT also baled out at 7,000rpm - where's the extra 700rpm that this chart shows

Hi Nigel,

Just a quick note to make sure there is no problem mate, it comes across that you have not been happy with the work recieved at perfect touch and we have wasted your time and money...?

I'm pretty sure this isnt your view but it comes across like that

Rob

This thread is getting close to being locked.

Please let Flea reply to Nigels question about the revs,.and see if he does intend to give any mechanical details about his car as many others of the power boys have done before him.

If this is not the case, then there really isnt a lot more to discuss on the matter.

@ Nigel/Rob
It might be best to discuss that particular conversation in private.

Sorry, hope I am not inconveniencing anyone here.

Joe

Joe, I can't give out details as mentioned before out of respect for Barbz and the time, money and effort he has put into this. It's not fair when his business relies on such efforts. I'm sure everyone can understand this as was the case with the 2.4 conversion.

Re Nigel's question, I don't have those graphs as Rob only saved a small percentage out of what must have been literally hundreds. However, Rob initially set the limiter to 7350rpm but it was still making peak power so he moved that to 7550rpm... I begged him to reconsider and up to 8000rpm but not knowing the engine very well he decided to compromise at 7750rpm The excel graphs are really for my reference where I have extended the power curve based on information from Rob. Peak power was made at 6500rpm but it holds it to redline and would have probably continued through to 8000rpm also as it was still efficient.

Ok, thanks Flea

Best lock this thread so everyone can still view it, and of course if anything new can be added into the mx, then we can have a new thread.

Joe