De-cat... are you technically insured?

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De-cat... are you technically insured? #239721 17/11/2006 06:15 17/11/2006 06:15
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	As above... as they are a bit of a grey area. As far as the Police are concered, they are a no-no. How do insurers see this?

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239722 17/11/2006 06:32 17/11/2006 06:32
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,459 Both feet in Meldrew Ave Cappo Forum is my life
Cappo Forum is my life Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,459 Both feet in Meldrew Ave	Well, if you don't declare it, you're not insured, and if you do declare it, it's a non roadworthy vehicle which an insurance company wouldn't cover. You do the math!! Habeus Maximus V8 Nihilum

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239723 17/11/2006 06:37 17/11/2006 06:37
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Thought so, not worth it! How many out there are technically not insured then? A frightening thought.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239724 17/11/2006 14:35 17/11/2006 14:35
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Well, if you don't declare it, you're not insured, and if you do declare it, it's a non roadworthy vehicle which an insurance company wouldn't cover. You do the math!! Certain cars dont have cats, and some pass without cats through the mot. Supposedly, if you can pass an mot your car is roadworthy, hence if you dont have a cat its nearer here nor there. However, we all know that coupes dont pass without cats. Ross

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239725 17/11/2006 18:28 17/11/2006 18:28
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	"All" petrol cars had to have a cat from mid 92 onwards, so this is a requirement. If you take it off though where would you stand with the insurers as technically it is illegal? As stated above, looks like those of us without one are technically not insured. Imagine the scene.. car pranged and immovable, car towed away to garage for insurance assessor to look at. Assessor sees cat removed and declares car isn't insured so a total loss. Youv'e also hit another car, your insurers will not pay out on this either. Other driver get's police involved as you were technically not insured. What would be the consequences? A criminal record?

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239726 17/11/2006 18:35 17/11/2006 18:35
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	You could just hollow out a Cat or put a pipe through one. That way to an insurance assessor it loks fine and u still get the performance increase. They would only know if the accident caused the exhuast to break in the area of the cat.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239727 17/11/2006 20:22 17/11/2006 20:22
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	could always get a sports cat, best of both worlds then. The other problem with a de-cat is that the Turbo's don't last as long due to the lack of back-pressure.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239728 17/11/2006 21:07 17/11/2006 21:07
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,462 Ipswich 06/08/2002 Ed My job on the forum
Ed My job on the forum Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,462 Ipswich 06/08/2002	IIRC Greenlight will not cover a post 92 car without a cat unless you have written confirmation from the DVLC that it is exempt. I would imagine all other insurers tow a similiar line. Join the club @ www.fccuk.org

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239729 17/11/2006 21:17 17/11/2006 21:17
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	So basically all de-cat cars the UK over are not insured then!

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239730 17/11/2006 22:08 17/11/2006 22:08
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland A AndrewR I AM a Coop
AndrewR I AM a Coop A Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland	Quote: Imagine the scene.. car pranged and immovable, car towed away to garage for insurance assessor to look at. Assessor sees cat removed and declares car isn't insured so a total loss. Youv'e also hit another car, your insurers will not pay out on this either. Other driver get's police involved as you were technically not insured. What would be the consequences? A criminal record? It's virtually impossible for insurers to avoid paying to 3rd parties on technicalities like this, although they could launch a civil case to reclaim any loses. As the insurance company would be forced, by law, to pay for the other damages the police wouldn't be interested in persuing a driving without insurance charge and, even if they did, it's a civil offence not a criminal one, so you couldn't possibly get a criminal record. That said, it is quite possible they'd refuse to pay out for the 1st party damage and you probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Dear monos, a secret truth.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239731 17/11/2006 22:12 17/11/2006 22:12
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland A AndrewR I AM a Coop
AndrewR I AM a Coop A Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland	Quote: So basically all de-cat cars the UK over are not insured then! No. If you have declared the modification to your insurance company and they have accepted it then your insurance is valid. Most motorbike insurers, for example, are quite happy to accept bikes with full race exhaust systems or non road legal end cans. The key is that the term "roadworthy" is not the same as "able to pass an MOT", if it were then your insurance would be void every time a tail-light bulb blew. Dear monos, a secret truth.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239732 17/11/2006 22:18 17/11/2006 22:18
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	hmm interesting, i declared my (future) exhaust as being " 3 inch turbo back sports exhaust" i wonder if i could argue this if i had an accident.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239733 17/11/2006 22:23 17/11/2006 22:23
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,459 Both feet in Meldrew Ave Cappo Forum is my life
Cappo Forum is my life Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,459 Both feet in Meldrew Ave	Quote: Most motorbike insurers, for example, are quite happy to accept bikes with full race exhaust systems or non road legal end cans. Is that true Andrew? I've made enquiries a couple of times and myinsurers have said there is no problem and no additional premuim to fit an aftermarket can, but ONLY if it's road legal? Habeus Maximus V8 Nihilum

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239734 17/11/2006 23:34 17/11/2006 23:34
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland A AndrewR I AM a Coop
AndrewR I AM a Coop A Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland	I had an illegal end-can for 5.5 years and never had a problem getting it insured ... mind you, I got through 2 MOTs as well. Dear monos, a secret truth.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239735 20/11/2006 20:57 20/11/2006 20:57
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Thats true, I had a Akrapovic full race system on my R1 (no cat, minimal baffles) and it was fully declared on the insurance and they were fine with it. It's illegal on both emissions and noise. I think with motorbikes things are a little bit more leniant on the basis that a bike with a big exhaust is less likely to be in an accident because the id0it in the car is more likely to hear you and not pull across your path.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239736 20/11/2006 22:05 20/11/2006 22:05
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Ive declared and im insured but this is a rare circumstance and loophole in the law Any standard coop without a cat will fail on the spot MOT checks and be illegal to drive. If you want to run the risk of seeing if your insurance co will find it come claim time thats yuor chance but a no thanks from me

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239737 21/11/2006 01:44 21/11/2006 01:44
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 51 Welwyn Garden City CoupeKarter Club member 1965
CoupeKarter Club member 1965 Reaping the fruits Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 51 Welwyn Garden City	There is no legal requirement to have a cat, working or otherwise, fitted to your vehicle. There is a legal requirement for your vehicle to comply with the emission limits when on the public roads. Removal of the cat represents a change that should be declared to an insurer. If the insurer accepts the change, they would have to pay up in a claim situation. But if plod sees the cat-less exhaust you could be prosecuted for driving an unroadworthy vehicle. "To race is to live, all the rest is simply waiting." Rudolf Carraciola.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239738 21/11/2006 04:13 21/11/2006 04:13
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	.......surely though & this is a theoretical idea, if YOUR coop actually could pass on emissions without a CAT, then technically it's legal as it passes the emissions requirements I've always run a race CAT & it always passes, HOWEVER, oddly enuf isn't it also TRUE that EVERY petrol car fails an emission test when started up from cold ? So then this MUST mean that every car is legally breaking the law at one point during the day ..depends how strictly you take the law to be. I am going to see if I can get my coop to run right without a CAT when the engine is up n' running, else I'll have to stump up for a MEGA high flow CAT

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239739 21/11/2006 04:17 21/11/2006 04:17
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	The insurance wouldnt pay out though as the car wouldnt pass the MOT for emmisions. if they spot checked you on the road, and yes i have seen it done. and tested the cars output it wouldnt pass and having a non valid MOT means no insurance as the car is not road legal then.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239740 21/11/2006 04:20 21/11/2006 04:20
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	.....the point is though will, that IF the coop actually could pass an MOT without a CAT ( hence the reason they are fitted ) , then there is NO reason to have an invalid MOT ever ( that is providing the rest of the car meets the MOT requirements ) But, agreed, on a boggo Coop, they would ALWAYS fail on emissions normally... even if you do fail ( eg : A genuine CAT failure ) then you have 5 - 7 days to have it fixed : Well that used to be a long time ago IIRC

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239741 21/11/2006 14:52 21/11/2006 14:52
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland A AndrewR I AM a Coop
AndrewR I AM a Coop A Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland	Quote: if they spot checked you on the road, and yes i have seen it done. and tested the cars output it wouldnt pass and having a non valid MOT means no insurance as the car is not road legal then. This isn't true, you're legally allowed to drive a car withon an MOT to a pre-booked MOT test and to drive home from a failed MOT test, unless the tester has advised you that the car is in a dangerous state. Hence a car which has failed a test can still be road-worthy. Also, a roadside test doesn't invalidate your existing MOT, although it mine earn you a rectification notice, so technically you still have an MOT. Dear monos, a secret truth.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239742 21/11/2006 17:58 21/11/2006 17:58
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Yes but they will only allow you to the MOT station and back and to a place of for the work to be carried out and back home. They will also corroberate this with the booking place as well. We all know how tight the DVLA and the Police are regarding these kinda things so personally i wouldnt take the chance and add in the fact that an insurance company will use any reason they can to get out of paying up, not a good idea.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239743 21/11/2006 18:07 21/11/2006 18:07
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland A AndrewR I AM a Coop
AndrewR I AM a Coop A Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland	I agree that it's not a good idea, but insurance companies can't arbitarily decide not to pay up. If, for example, you drove into the back of somebody and you have a duff brake light an argument that your vehicle was unroadworthy wouldn't cut much mustard, as it clearly wasn't a contributory factor in the accident. It's the same with the exhaust - if you don't declare it then it's misrepresentation of a material fact and they've got you bang to rights, but if they accepted it as an insured risk I think they'd find it impossible to back out of paying out anything. Dear monos, a secret truth.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239744 26/11/2006 18:06 26/11/2006 18:06
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: .......surely though & this is a theoretical idea, if YOUR coop actually could pass on emissions without a CAT, then technically it's legal as it passes the emissions requirements No, our cars are legally required to have a cat, regardless of the emissions.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239745 26/11/2006 18:08 26/11/2006 18:08
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: I agree that it's not a good idea, but insurance companies can't arbitarily decide not to pay up. As I understand it, if you don't declare something to them, then they can only decide not to pay-out to you if it is a factor in the claim. I assume that they will always pay-out to third parties, but may then sue you for the payment.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239746 28/11/2006 01:32 28/11/2006 01:32
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: I agree that it's not a good idea, but insurance companies can't arbitarily decide not to pay up. If, for example, you drove into the back of somebody and you have a duff brake light an argument that your vehicle was unroadworthy wouldn't cut much mustard, as it clearly wasn't a contributory factor in the accident. It's the same with the exhaust - if you don't declare it then it's misrepresentation of a material fact and they've got you bang to rights, but if they accepted it as an insured risk I think they'd find it impossible to back out of paying out anything. So true. They are regulated so cant just decide not to pay. I very much doubt that emissions would EVER cause an accident. Ross

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239747 28/11/2006 06:03 28/11/2006 06:03
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	The extra power may do?

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239748 28/11/2006 21:42 28/11/2006 21:42
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: No, our cars are legally required to have a cat, regardless of the emissions. I think you will find this to be true so any de-cat pipes are therefore illegal. Pre- '92 and you are okay. I think in extreme cases i.e. persistant use of a de-cat the vehicle could be confiscated. But on the subject of insurance I'm still convinced that the policy is null and void should the car be involved in an accident. Technically, they cannot insure a non-roadworthy vehicle? Anyone in the Motor Insurance game on here to shed some definative light on this one?

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239749 29/11/2006 06:52 29/11/2006 06:52
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	1. Insurance companies will only insure a car if its road legal in its country of registration. 2. if a car is not road legal due to a deliberate act by the user / keeper then the policy is not void, but becomes 3rd party only, so that other people dont loose out. The answer is clear, move to the Isle of Man, where cats are not compulsory. (honestly - and no jokes re the tail missing)

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239750 29/11/2006 07:41 29/11/2006 07:41
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Could a Coupé pass the emissions test without a cat if it was running on LPG? Kingpleb?

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239751 29/11/2006 14:29 29/11/2006 14:29
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	I fail to see why a car must have a cat if it can pass an emissions test without it. Ross

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239752 29/11/2006 14:32 29/11/2006 14:32
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Because the Government says so? Certain toxins are also converted (I don't know the exact physics)so are less harmful to the environment, hence the "converter" bit of the name. Last edited by jayzee; 29/11/2006 18:06.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239753 30/11/2006 03:18 30/11/2006 03:18
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	if the car passes the emmissions test its fine, it would never be taken any further (imo, although academic as i am sure it wouldnt). If you was pulled by the police and they noticed, you can just say that it passed its mot though??? If that was the case they would probably ask you to take a retest possibly. Most police are just normal blokes, and it depends if you draw attention to yourself, if you are sideways round a round about for driving like a tw@t then he will look for things like that, but if you drive like that possibly you should get done. but thats a different topic. Ultimatly if the car had a cat from the factory then it needs it on now, if it doesnt, then you can be done. wether you would or wouldnt would be a different matter... i would say wouldnt, at worst be told it must be fitted, and 7days to do so! My oppinion

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239754 30/11/2006 05:00 30/11/2006 05:00
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	But are you insured?

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239755 30/11/2006 12:49 30/11/2006 12:49
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: 1. Insurance companies will only insure a car if its road legal in its country of registration. 2. if a car is not road legal due to a deliberate act by the user / keeper then the policy is not void, but becomes 3rd party only, so that other people dont loose out. To satisfy the law in EEC areas (most civilised countries too) you need cover against 3rd party risks. So if you remove the cat, technically the insurance company 'could' down grade your cover to 3rd party. in much the same way as they do if a driver has their licence suspended by a law court but is caught driving. So yes you would be insured but at a much lower level. Your risk it is then. or as i said earlier, create a group buy for houses in the Isle of Man. Cats are not needed here... .. oh and yes did i mention the lack of speed limits out of town????

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239756 30/11/2006 17:43 30/11/2006 17:43
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	So that's it then.... a trip to Longlife to get my cat put back on.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239757 03/12/2006 07:09 03/12/2006 07:09
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Im insured and i know im covered as you can run an LPG converted car without one as even without a cat its still better for the enviroment than petrol On the police thing, i got pulled over the other night for exuberant(spelling vickster!) driving and he thought 1, i was driving some kind of TVR(!!!), please i have airbags and ABS 2, the car next to me was a saxo(mk2 golf GTi)! so i dont think the cat thing would be a worry unless they were traffic police clued up on cars well enough but id say the average exhaust note would give it away and also when the insurance assessor see it to value the write off potential of the car... PS i passed my last MOT without a CAT using the bloke that iceberg has doing his MOT's

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239758 04/12/2006 03:48 04/12/2006 03:48
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	An MOT pass is not sufficient for a car to be road legal. A cat is required by law.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239759 04/12/2006 04:18 04/12/2006 04:18
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland A AndrewR I AM a Coop
AndrewR I AM a Coop A Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland	I think we're going round in circles on this thread, so can we bring it to a close, please? The debate about cats and MOTs is largely irrelevant - typically insurance documents require that your car is road-worthy, which is not the same as MOT'd or road-legal. It is not the job of insurance companies to enforce construction & use regs, so any modifications they accept are covered, even if they technically make your car illegal for road use. From a legal viewpoint your insurance company would find it impossible to back out of providing cover for an item that was declared to them and which they accepted as a material part of your contract. If, of course, you don't declare a de-cat, or if your insurance company won't provide a quote with it as a modification the boot is on the other foot and you could well find yourself in trouble. So, can we end it there? Dear monos, a secret truth.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239760 04/12/2006 20:16 04/12/2006 20:16
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	I can't see how it makes much odd's while there may be a legal requirment for vehicles to be fitted with a cat the form size shape and airflow charteristics would be of no interest to an insurance company other than if by changing it, it affects the vehicles performance. After all you could have a cat fitted which is pretty much non functional, either through wear or because the cells have broken up which technically makes the vehicle unroadworthy, however the driver and insurance is unlikely to be aware of this fact. I think it would only come into play if it was deemed that the component was the cause or contributed to an accident, such as the coupling failed and the pipe came off causing an accident, or by increasing the performance to such an extent etc etc. Otherwise from the conversation I had from my insurers it would seem that they would only replace the broken parts with OEM equipment, therefore if you smashed the car up, they would repair it to how the manufacturer had it thus you would loose any extra goodies (even if declared, unless you specifically insure the modified vehicle parts). If you were to smash your car up to the point where the cat is damaged then in all likelyhood the cars going to be a total loss anyway. So the decat is neither here nor there. If the accident was subject to a police investigation and it was found a car was heavily modified and that was a cause of the accident then it may be a different story. But you have more to be worried about with worn tyres or brakes. As far as I'm aware anyway is the insurance assessor simply looks to agree the cost of repairs quoted by the repair shop to ensure they are not getting ripped off for unessary bits.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239761 04/12/2006 23:10 04/12/2006 23:10
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Just declare a 'non standard' exhaust. That way you are just been honest but vague.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239762 05/12/2006 18:40 05/12/2006 18:40
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Another option you have is to fit a high flow cat.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239763 05/12/2006 19:15 05/12/2006 19:15
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: The insurance wouldnt pay out though as the car wouldnt pass the MOT for emmisions. if they spot checked you on the road, and yes i have seen it done. and tested the cars output it wouldnt pass and having a non valid MOT means no insurance as the car is not road legal then. But THOUSANDS of cars are being driven with dodgy tyres / brakes / suspension etc which would fail an on the spot test. An MOT is not meant to gaurantee that the car is ok for a whole year - that would be impossible. Tehcnically You could drive out of the MOT station straight into another and fail (although unlikely)! As the general public are not expected to be solicitors, I think if you notify your insurance company and they except the risk of a cat-less exhuast they would find it very hard not to pay out to both 3rd parties AND to you. I cant see the courts swinging in the favour of the insurance company if they told you its OK! So - how about this as an attempt to come to some kind of agreement IF decat NOT declared then you are liable to have your insurance reduced to 3rd party and are liable for prosecution for failing emissions / be made to fix it. IF decat IS declared then you are pretty safe insurance wise but still liable to prosecution / putting it back on after a spot check? Last edited by warnysouth; 05/12/2006 19:23.

Re: De-cat... are you technically insured? #239764 05/12/2006 19:54 05/12/2006 19:54
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland A AndrewR I AM a Coop
AndrewR I AM a Coop A Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,546 Northumberland	OK, we're going round the loop again, so this one is being forcibly closed. Thank you to all who have participated. Dear monos, a secret truth.

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