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Track settings
#1596790
17/03/2017 10:35
17/03/2017 10:35
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mootch
Unregistered
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mootch
Unregistered
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Hi. Having finally got my coupe tarmac rally car project underway,i need to find a decent tarmac setup, all the single venues are very smooth so a race/track setup is fine. As the car will not go on broken tarmac hard setups are ok. So I am looking for some help with regard to spring rates and dampers including anti roll bars, any input would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance Mike
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1596797
17/03/2017 11:52
17/03/2017 11:52
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,291 Staffs
Dazvr6
My job on the forum
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My job on the forum
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,291
Staffs
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Can't help with spring rates but my coupe is fitted with BC Racing coilovers with adjustable top mounts on the front. It's also dropped around 30mm. They are set to the softest damper setting and it's still too hard for normal road use imo. On new/smooth tarmac though.....
It's got about 1 degree negative camber on the front and it turns in really well but is a little 'tail happy' at speed.
Last edited by Dazvr6; 18/03/2017 10:46.
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1596806
17/03/2017 13:21
17/03/2017 13:21
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mootch
Unregistered
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mootch
Unregistered
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Daz, thanks for quick reply, what roll bars are you using. I have read very mixed reviews regarding the bc stuff, but I must admit they look pretty good and I guess the early issues are settled now
Last edited by mootch; 17/03/2017 13:47. Reason: spelling mistake
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1596814
17/03/2017 15:08
17/03/2017 15:08
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369
Staffordshire
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Mootch - your setup will depend on how you want the car to behave.
I have experimented with steering and suspension geometry on the Coupe for several years and I have found that you can have "ultra-stable", through to "tail-happy" and anywhere inbetween.
"Ultra-stable" is great for big wide-open circuits, where corner speeds are high and where you don't want the back end to be too mobile. It can be frustrating when you want sharp turn-in going into tight corners.
"Tail-happy" is huge fun on tight twisty circuits, but it can be properly scary when cornering at high speed (ie over 100mph)
For "ultra-stable", my settings are something like:-
2mm toe-in Standard camber / caster medium damping at both ends, erring towards soft at the rear 22mm rear ARB 38psi front, 30psi rear
For tail-happy, try the following:-
parallel toe 1.5mm - 2mm negative camber Firm damping both ends, with the rear set a bit harder 24mm rear ARB 36-37psi front, 31-32psi rear
I now have my car set to "fairly pointy, but quite stable", with settings as follows:-
1mm toe-in 1.25mm negative camber Medium damping both ends 23mm rear ARB 37psi front, 30psi rear
For all setups, I strongly recommend matched tyres on all four corners - if you put different tyres front and rear, you'll upset the balance.
Also, for all of the above settings, you should have an upper brace (and ideally a lower brace too). I also strongly recommend a Quaife diff if you want any chance of putting the power down at the same time as having any steering angle.
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1596832
17/03/2017 19:02
17/03/2017 19:02
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mootch
Unregistered
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mootch
Unregistered
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Thanks nigel , I was hoping you would reply tbh, the pointy stable setting sounds pretty good, and I don't really need much more than 100 mph at all. I am tempted to try the kba racing gear, I know there have been some issues with them, but on a lot of other forums they like them a lot. Regarding the tyres, I was thinking of running harder fronts as the weight on soft rubber will cause them to go off pretty quick ( I think ?).
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1596843
17/03/2017 21:25
17/03/2017 21:25
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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Hi... I have a track only coupe and run the following spec-: Will post some video links to give you an idea, it has a slightly twitchy rear end in the wet mainly due to the size of the arb, but its flat and turns in very very well! Bc Coilovers with pillowball topmounts -2 deg camber 2mm toe Firm on front med on rear Upper and lower strut brace Brand new bottom arms Powerflex arb links Whiteline front arb 24mm rear arb Solid rear bushes Quiafe diff Federal 595rs /ao48 tyres https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kNZU5cnpGmw
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1596849
17/03/2017 23:23
17/03/2017 23:23
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mootch
Unregistered
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mootch
Unregistered
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Thanks for the vid. Car seems to go well, what are pillow ball mounts ?
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1596863
18/03/2017 09:28
18/03/2017 09:28
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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Its adjustable top mounts on the front struts, allows for camber adjustment
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1597996
05/04/2017 21:35
05/04/2017 21:35
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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Hi, I run 205 50 16 or 225 45 16 The federals offer excellent value for money, they are very good in the damo; but I find they get hot and go off after a few "fast" laps in the dry.
I'm currently still perfecting the setup, as I was recently out in the dry and it wasn't performing as well, think my tyres were perhaps too old and had gone off so to speak.
The coupe isn't a good handling car on track, not factory anyway but it can be greatly improved!
I have a set of slicks to try and will report back asap.
Good luck and thanks!
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1598044
06/04/2017 16:38
06/04/2017 16:38
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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Kerr20v
Unregistered
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I find them very good, especially for the money. They are smooth on the road too, they were the single best mod in transforming the cars handling, can't comment on durability yet, only done around 2k miles, but that includes 10 track days, with some air and kerbs too! So they will wear out quicker I'd think, I'm going go for gaz golds eventually but the bcs are great for the cash.
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1599108
22/04/2017 19:16
22/04/2017 19:16
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mootch
Unregistered
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mootch
Unregistered
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Godders, As that is around the corner for me I will come along and have a watch. Mike
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1599562
29/04/2017 19:56
29/04/2017 19:56
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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So Anglesey went well, car stayed on road, I smiled a lot and realised in road trim Coupes are not the best handling track cars.
It's currently fitted with UniRoyal 'rain master' tyres and they are s*t on track. With standard suspension (and lack of talent) I spent most of the time driving on the tyre wall rather than the flat stuff on top!!!!
I have some piccies which I'll post showing the tyre wear. Basically they over heated at which point the handling became quite ..... interesting.
That said irrespective of standard handling the car is quick. Remember this is basically a standard 20VT 6 Speed Plus. Few cars could over take me on the 'straight' (if you call the slightly straighty bit in Anglesey a straight!!!!), admittedly the odd Radical etc I definitely let pass and as I was quite pedestrian around the bends felt it only right to let people through but the Focus ST's with race tyres I let them have a good view of that Coupe Boot lid
So I have a few things to do. I've got Sparco seats and harnesses to fit but ran out of time for Friday which was a shame as part of the trouble with the handling is I spent a lot of my time bracing myself against various parts of the car as I slipped out of the leather seats - lol
So I need some decent tyres, I need to look at the handling especially the turn in and bite (though I expect the latter is partially down to the rubber)
So I'm on a journey and though I don't want to hijack this thread welcome very much input from you guys. Finally big thanks to CountryCruising (Joe) and his team of doing a complete service and brake overhaul and getting the car serviced and ready for Friday in very short time!
I have to say, I always thought Coupe brakes were chocolate but after Joes fettling they were awesome and were always there when I pounded them!
And finally, finally! The comments I got about the car were great, most people thought I was completely bonkers using a Fiat Coupe as a track day car but people really appreciated an 'Italian Classic' on circuit and I was the guy people walked up to and chatted to, not the guys with the Caterhams, Radicals or Atoms (we're not even mention the BMW boys)
Regards
Sg
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1599609
30/04/2017 18:18
30/04/2017 18:18
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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Good to hear you enjoyed it and as you said on Thursday when i was at Joes this is the very slippery slope when bitten by the track bug and good to hear the Coupe getting the much deserved attention in the pits.
Tyres as we were speaking id go for the R888's or AD08r's if you keep an eye on Fleabay you will find good used sets for the price of 1 brand new one if your wanting to keep cost down.
next is suspension poly bush, ARB's and some eibach/bilstein or BC coil overs with the little improvements you will be give most things a run for there money and surprise yourself what level of expensive car you out perform.
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1599624
30/04/2017 21:15
30/04/2017 21:15
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,302 Pontefract, West Yorkshire
andyps
Club member 1482
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Club member 1482
My job on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,302
Pontefract, West Yorkshire
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I can recommend the AD08R, I used them for the last three years on my Coupe which is predominantly a hillclimb car. They give good grip but are OK for general road use. Not mega in the wet (I had AD08 rather than the AD08R which is supposed to be better) but never had any concerns about using them.
Ironically, given what you have said about the Uniroyal Rain Master that is what I now want for mine. The class rules have changed this year meaning we can use R888 and similar - I've got some of those but as they have so little tread depth and really aren't good in the wet I may as well have a set of wheels/tyres for road use and to put on for the hillclimb if it is a wet day - on that basis the best possible wet weather tyre makes sense for me.
Incidentally, I am running B6 shocks and EIbach springs with, this year, the Eiback anti-roll bars front and back. Corners really flat now . First season I ran standard, second I had the springs and shocks which knocked about a second off my times, then I went for the AD08s which were worth about another second until they went off. With this years changes, including a quaife diff I'm hoping for at least another second. Need to take some brave pills too!
Andy
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1599716
02/05/2017 20:38
02/05/2017 20:38
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mootch
Unregistered
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mootch
Unregistered
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godders, sorry I missed you, I went over on the sunday only to find a sprint on, dimbo !!! andy, what spring rates are you running. mike
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Re: Track settings
[Re: andyps]
#1599766
03/05/2017 13:34
03/05/2017 13:34
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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Hi Andy, Just getting time to catch-up on posts!!! So looking to get Toyo 888R's and it seems I'm getting Eibach ARB's Springs and Bilsteins Back to the RainSports (my bad, not sure where Master cames form). To me they have a good looking tread pattern but I would say they have a bit of a winter tyre "feel" to the tyre wall and shoulder, they make a bit of a droning racket when you lean on them, initially I wondered whether this was my wheel bearings, but I was assured by the circuit instructor it was the tyres. I definately needed to up the tyre pressures, being a newoob to this I was initially driving it on standard pressure then upto 30PSI (though tbh, didn't notice any difference), i suspect I should have gone a bit more looking at the info posted earlier on here! I would definitely say these are a wet weather tyre, when you lean into them they flex which is good on wet/damp roads but of course less than optimum in the dry!! Its a shame you are so far away from me as once I upgrade my rubber I won't be needing them, they have a 2016 manu' date and were fitted latter part of last year so have apart from my chinnagins on Friday minimal wear! So seats, I've bought Sparco Grid II, these are similar to EV/EVO II but have a deeper seat and adjustable pads and were just under £300 a seat from Demon Tweaks. I have these with adjustable base and universal mount for Driver and just universal for passenger. Along with this I have TRS Magnum 6 Point harnesses. I'm hoping to fit them this weekend and will post some pictures - I suspect I should create a project thread on here for what I'm up to Regards
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1599771
03/05/2017 13:50
03/05/2017 13:50
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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Hi Mike, No problem, probably a good idea as I'm blaming the tyres when in reality it was probably all me and you would have been able to ratify that if you were there Regards
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Re: Track settings
[Re: andyps]
#1600000
06/05/2017 08:42
06/05/2017 08:42
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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If you want out and out track day tyres for standard size wheels these are a bargain - don't mind sharing now I've confirmed a set for myself! eBay link for R888R To all that are interested in the tyres from the link it has best offers as well. I offered £250 for a set of 4 and after 24Hrs he accepted so paid and should be on there way next week to me
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1601179
23/05/2017 17:19
23/05/2017 17:19
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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Well the BC fronts turned up today and i must say they look like a quality bit of kit. Ive used some cheap coil overs before including FK's and i must say these look very well made but we will see how they do on track.
At the moment they only do the BR series style coil overs if there is more interest later on (if more venture on track) Apex said they will push for a better set up out of there line.
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1601222
24/05/2017 07:26
24/05/2017 07:26
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369
Staffordshire
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@ Stuart
I'm happy to put some text together which you can use in a wider article about handling. However, many of my posts over the years have generally about making the Coupe get round corners better / faster. This is only one aspect of "handling" - I'm also of the opinion that the best-handling Coupe for everyday use is one on standard wheels, good tyres, standard suspension and springs. The designers at Fiat knew what they were doing when they built the Coupe (albeit using an old chassis as a base and a compromised design as the basis for a sporty coupe). One of the very best handling Coupes I've ever driven was my own Moon Grey Plus, just after I bought it, when it had just 24,000 miles on the clock and was completely standard.
Most owners complaining of wayward handling are running on budget tyres, tired wishbones, original springs and shocks, or worse still, badly-matched springs and dampers, oversize wheels & tyres and daft amounts of camber caused by lowering too far.
Car handling is a bit of a dark art and its really easy to get it horribly wrong
I'll have a think about it and try to come up with some text
Last edited by Nigel; 24/05/2017 07:28.
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1607300
04/09/2017 17:06
04/09/2017 17:06
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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Thought I would give an update on "Barry" my trackday car. I eventually chose BC BR Series Coilovers - basically what Adam had on the back of his car and has just got to put on the front. I've paired this with Elbach ARB's (front and rear). Solid (black) Powerflex bushes on front wishbones, droplinks etc. New VibroTechnic Engine mounts (as the originals were shagged). FCSS subframes (front and rear) Toyo R888R 225/45 16 tyres. Fundamentally the car is transformed. I have still some fettling in the front suspension as I think the front is a bit too low. There is insufficient adjustment in the pillow mounts to get any reasonable camber and as Nigel mentioned, MacPherson struts on lots of compression start to work against you and all that lovely neg' camber you've setup gets dialled out. General rule it seems on this sort of set-up is add more camber that you need as when you really compress the front suspension in a high speed bend the MacPherson will obligingly dial it out for you So I have some camber bolts, which I shall be fitting soon. The intention is to set the pillow mounts with maximum positive adjustment, set my camber with ~1 degree neg through the camber bolts and then I have the ability to easily dial in an extra 1.5 or so degrees and see how the car behaves. I've (well Joe FCSS has) also stripped all the airconn out from the engine bay, this has two benefits that I can see, I lose a bit of weight, and I also have better access to the aux belts, heat shield etc, also removing the aircon heat exchanger has got to improve airflow to the radiator to, though it does make room for an FMIC Back in July I took Barry with all this setup, my new Sparco Seats and Harnesses fitted to Snetterton. The car was massively better on the track than my first outing. Although I'm a bit of a newbie on all this trackday lark, the confidence on the car was great, I still thought it needed a bit more bight at the front and I feel/felt this was camber related. Last August bank holiday I was at DN18 - Nordschleife, for two days of the green ribbon. Prior to going I managed to dial-in some neg camber on the pillow mounts (to this point the coilovers were set-up as per factory). This certainly seemed to help (a bit). Overall I was happy with the performance of the car, interestingly I was slowed by significantly more expensive machinary - this could be down to experience on this circuit (I did DN16 last year in a Rent4Ring Swift), but also confidence in the car. My presumption is I was more confident in my car's handling than they were in theirs! So whats next? Well, Barry was not entirely reliable at the Nordschleife, nothing terminal, but just electrical and induction pipe work. So I need to spend a little time fixing the "wearing of age", so the EBV does not keep failing and the pipe from the intercooler does not pop off at 100+ I will also be taking him to someone who can do a weighting setup and with some proper Hunter gear some proper alignment etc. I'm also looking at doing the radiator fan fix so I can run these with the engine off, possibly also some way to help the coolant circulate too. I'm looking also to fit a glass fibre bonnet, again to shift some of that weight and re-locate the battery to the boot. Thats it for now, I'm planning one last track day for this year before I put Barry metaphorically to bed. Hope this is interesting and I would be pleased to receive any of your views?
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Re: Track settings
[Re: Nigel]
#1607355
05/09/2017 17:07
05/09/2017 17:07
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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Hi Nigel, Referring back to this original thread: http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1547540&page=4Trappy's Coupe was set with ~1 degree of neg camber and from the picture seems to have the pillow mount right inboard (i.e at maximum adjustment). I'll take some photo's of my top mounts and post. As for whether these are Asyms or not - no idea, let me try and investigate this. What I would say is I'm not suffering the caster issues Trappy experienced in the above noted thread, also bowling down the Bridge to Gantry at an indicated 145mph the car felt solid, so I think my caster and toe (though absolutely needs checking) is reasonable. Your point of front ARB is a good one and I can only test that out, so I'll add that to my list of things to investigate. Yeah, I am having a lot of fun. I actually think the Coupe is quite a good car to fiddle with (though I suspect the Clio Williams people will argue differently), once I have a suspension setup I'm happy with and where I'm able to do good track times because I have a reasonable handling car, rather than 500bhp to zoom down the straights and then boil my brakes at the corner, I'll look to up the HP a little Quoting Colin Chapman: "Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." - I would also add that making a car handle is a double win, as not only do you improve your on track performance, but you need less emphasis on brakes and cooling! Anyway thanks for the reply and I'll "post me tops mounts" in the next few days. Regards Sg
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1609054
06/10/2017 11:49
06/10/2017 11:49
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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Hi Andy,
Sorry for slow reply.
I believe you can get adjustable pillow mounts, but the effort to fit these to the turret's I don't know - hopefully others can confirm here. Do you have camber bolts fitted? as these are the alternative to adjusting camber and are quite easy to fit - though get yourself a camber gauge first.
Agree about the turbo, mine's doing the same, while I sit in the pit lane my car is smoking like a teenager!! Goes soon as I'm on circuit, but I do just find it embarrassing.
I think my next “tuning” purchase is probably Quaife Diff and probably a Turbo upgrade, though replacing the seals I don’t think is massively expensive, so I’ll have to see, forcing Barry on a further diet is also the plan as less weight effectively means better acceleration, fitting fibre glass bonnet saves around 35-40 kilo’s so thats losing a decent amount of weight and importantly from the front!
I’ve still got these tyres for you if you’re still interested, need to sort a time when I’m next driving upt’ north!!
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Re: Track settings
[Re: ]
#1609059
06/10/2017 13:58
06/10/2017 13:58
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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I do love reading this thread because its good to see the coupe being used for what i use mine for mostly.
Keep it up and i think a Uk coupe track day would be an idea if you both fancy it
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Track settings
[Re: godders]
#1609761
16/10/2017 15:27
16/10/2017 15:27
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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Nigel, Eventually, I have some pictures of my BC Top mounts: Nearside TM And Offside TM As you can see these do not have an offset or bias, so this is keeping the existing caster (least thats my interpretation). Thanks Regards Sg
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Re: Track settings
[Re: knight7660]
#1609762
16/10/2017 15:31
16/10/2017 15:31
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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Hi Adam, Glad your enjoying the thread, I also did not realize you were such a whizz with a paint brush, so wash it out well as I've got plenty for the brush and you on my place Absolutely up for a UK Coupe trackday, I just missed out on the Silverstone GP on the 6th Nov (Circuit-days) But I intend to get a last day in November, especially after my camber bolt fettling of recent. Regards Sg
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Re: Track settings
[Re: godders]
#1610638
27/10/2017 22:51
27/10/2017 22:51
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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there is brands 25 or 26th o November if people are interested i know Joe would like to squeeze another in before the year is out but is very busy and weekends is the only time he will be able to do it Hi Adam Glad your enjoying the thread, I also did not realize you were such a whizz with a paint brush, so wash it out well as I've got plenty for the brush and you on my place Absolutely up for a UK Coupe trackday, I just missed out on the Silverstone GP on the 6th Nov (Circuit-days) But I intend to get a last day in November, especially after my camber bolt fettling of recent. Regards Sg
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Track settings
[Re: knight7660]
#1610959
03/11/2017 20:22
03/11/2017 20:22
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157 Surrey Hills, U.K
godders
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 157
Surrey Hills, U.K
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oohh, you temptress Adam!! Just edited this post, as i’ve now realised this is US Thanks Giving weekend and so I will be away I do see that there is a Saturday at Brands on 9th Dec’ is that too late in the year, Joe might have been able to extract himself from under his Coupes by then Let me know if you want to try and sync up cheers Sg
Last edited by godders; 04/11/2017 09:25. Reason: Didn’t check my diary first
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