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XFR - too fast to have fun
#1575955
04/06/2016 19:38
04/06/2016 19:38
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Well, it's been dry, it's been sunny and I have my P-zeros back on.
I've been trying to 'use' the car as I did the coupe and it isn't possible for several reasons:
The 20vt is quick, but not too quick. I felt comfortable hooning round country roads using all the revs and generally enjoying the car. Having had a few attempts at this in the jag all I can say is it is too fast. The speeds reached are stupid, I'm not going to quote them here but they are significantly higher than achieved in my 20vt. To the point where it feels anti social and dangerous.
Grip. In total sports settings the rears churp changing from 2nd to 3rd in just about all conditions. This gives you an idea of how difficult it is to drive quickly, everything involves feathering and full concentration. Again in the coup it was very much throttle on / off with only sharp corners needing some thought. In the dry in the coup I never had traction issues.
Fuel. I did a 40 mile blast and averaged 9.8 mpg. That's some serious fuel usage and some of the 40 miles were in 30 and 40 zones... Where a coupe would do 220-250 miles to a tank pressing on the jag is more like 100-120!!
Touching cloth. I'll be honest, it scares the shit out of me. It grips in corners like nothing I've driven, it's light and agile and catapults you out of corners on a tsunami of torque, it feels like nothing will stop it, ever (jag have had 226 mph out of one at bonneville with only aero mods) but (big but) when it let's go, my hell it feels heavy and big! The esp is quite intrusive but switch it off and you know why. All I can say is it reminds me of a TVR Griffith 500 I once drove. If you say a wrong word to it then it will stab you in the face and shove a baseball bat up your arse. It really is a very angry car.
The only bonus is it makes its best noises in 1st and 2nd on over run. So up to 30 mph accelerating and backing off you get the full range of charger whine, V8 goodness and pops, bangs and crackles that are not engineered in. The coupe needed winding up more to get the best noises, so it's a bit more socially acceptable making it sound nice...
So, although it is the most relaxing cruiser I have driven, it's a glorious place to be. Aircon seats are brilliant, heated steering wheel and a 1400w stereo by bowers Wilkins gives a gorgeous sound I just can't or don't feel comfortable enjoying driving it as intended like I do my coupe. (although I have much less paranoia driving it hard)
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576004
05/06/2016 03:37
05/06/2016 03:37
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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Confused on a Fiat Coupe forum How does that read on a jag forum ?
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576035
05/06/2016 15:16
05/06/2016 15:16
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Confused on a Fiat Coupe forum How does that read on a jag forum ? Same as on here, the car's far too potent to use even 50% of its power. If you turn the traction aids off you need to be a bloody good driver not to kill yourself or someone else if you try and push on. Don't get me wrong, it's bloody epic and planting the throttle feels like you wouldn't believe a 1800kg car could. It goes into silly speeds in less time than most cars get to 60, the brakes are out of this world the bite is endless the stopping power is like Ive never felt BUT it is just too much for our roads, and forget legal fun because you can't - the car hasn't even woken up. I went out with the family this morning, coming up to a round about on a DC and braked very late, then accelerated very hard. 1 child and the wife then complained that they felt sick and it was like a roller coaster ride. I could have been far more aggressive still.... But I do love it!
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576039
05/06/2016 17:42
05/06/2016 17:42
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,783 In the coupe.
magooagain
Club Member 259
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Club Member 259
Forum is my life
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,783
In the coupe.
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Get it onto a track and see what it can do.Otherwise sell it if it's to much.
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576050
05/06/2016 20:01
05/06/2016 20:01
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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It's not that it's too much...
... You know when that tw@ drives through your village in a fast car at a million miles per hour. The car makes me feel like that dickhead, like everything is too much. Don't get me wrong, getting it through the gears is great fun but it also feels too much, too fast and not right. The ability to do 100 over the speed limit in many places is just a bit WOW!
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576072
05/06/2016 23:37
05/06/2016 23:37
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Jonny
Unregistered
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Jonny
Unregistered
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I see mine a bit differently. Maybe it's due to the value? Obviously the cars are in the same ballpark in most areas except price. 0-60 4.7 vs my 5.0 0-100 9.7? vs 11.0. Close enough I don't see it as a balls-out car. Most of the time I cruise about - air-con, air-con seats , 440w stereo etc whilst enjoying the wonderful engine noise/torque/ride. But when the situation arises, it's so far ahead of anything I've had before. Ok plenty of cars can match it in a straight line, but these days they aren't usually RWD. The way it hooks up in the bends is amazing especially on 285 wide Pilot Supersports Point/squirt/hold on and then calm down back to a relaxing cruise I've had so many compliments from people about it, more than any other car. You'd be sad if you sold it. They really are so good. That's part of the problem. Just find some safer roads to unleash the beast... Or do a track evening. Just do a few laps and that will probably satisfy you. I know from my brother than more than a couple of laps in one go will kill off the brakes. But I'm glad you've posted this, as I keep being tempted by a pulley upgrade to go from 420 to 480bhp, but there really is no point is there
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576094
06/06/2016 09:45
06/06/2016 09:45
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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I don't see it as a balls-out car. Agree - I have the sister 5.0 XKR coupe and I spend more time cruising than "racing". But on modern roads that is all you can do. I bought it because it is a well made machine that looks good and is a nice place to be, plus it drives very well. Taught enough to feel confident in it but comfortable enough to not want to leave it at home. Sure it is very fast. Too fast to make much sense maybe but it is a car that you can treat gently and it will still have performance to spare. It is a car that needs respect and a smooth driving style. Throwing it about seems wrong and does not aid confidence. However, I expect I would not have bothered if I lived in the UK. At least here you can let it fly once in a while if you want to and you are lucky enough to find a decent piece of tarmac that is not already full of slower metal. The biggest danger is not noticing how fast you are going when travelling at normal speeds. Over 130 mph or so, it starts to feel fast, simply because of other stuff around you and the potential to still accelerate pretty hard.
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576134
06/06/2016 16:11
06/06/2016 16:11
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Lucifer
Unregistered
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Lucifer
Unregistered
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We have similar cars in terms of performance, the way they deliver the performance, and the purpose they are intended for, so I can probably comment from a very similar viewpoint. I must admit there are times when you almost feel frustrated by the lack of opportunity to make the most of your car, and I accept the comments about 'get it onto a racetrack' etc, but ultimately it is a road car and that's where you will spend the overwhelming majority (if not all) of your time with your pride and joy. It's frightening just how quickly it would be possible to get to speeds which could land you in the nick if you were so inclined, and with the size and comfort of these kinds of big powerful saloon cars they never seem to feel like they're moving as fast as they really are, so it sometimes comes as a surprise when you're accelerating down a slip road and then happen to glance at your speed as you join the carriageway So does the Jag really struggle to get its power down in the lower gears then? That does surprise me. I don't seem to have any problems with the M5, even at full acceleration it won't break traction if you're on a dry, flat surface. Damp or bumpy though and that's another matter altogether! Oh and my MPG is equally, if not more, horrendous. I have been running my car now for just over 4 months, I have rarely been stuck in slow moving traffic as I reserve most of my driving for when I have a decent run. I've also done quite a lot of long distance/motorway drives, in amongst the fun stuff. My average combined MPG over the four months has been 12.9mpg. I don't even dare think what it would be if I re-set it just before having a good fun blast... Either way, enjoy the Jag because it's the best of almost all worlds. Sure it's not economical, but it is practical, great to look out, sounds immense, and is capable of awesome performance when you want it. You don't necessarily have to push it to its limits
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576135
06/06/2016 16:13
06/06/2016 16:13
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,391 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,391
Essex
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Buy a Coupe and give it 416bhp Mine should be as near as damn it the same as the Jaaaag and I have no issues using it (all of it occasionally) on the road... Cornering is a little different though. It handles and grips so well that I fall out of the seats... so I can't push it too hard in the twisties... I think your issue is more that the car feels so planted when doing those speeds. Something more raw would give you a great deal more sense of the speeds you're doing. It's more the competence than the speed...
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576137
06/06/2016 16:27
06/06/2016 16:27
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Jonny
Unregistered
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Jonny
Unregistered
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So does the Jag really struggle to get its power down in the lower gears then? That does surprise me. I don't seem to have any problems with the M5, even at full acceleration it won't break traction if you're on a dry, flat surface. Damp or bumpy though and that's another matter altogether!
It is easy to get it to spin up and I've got 80bhp less than an XFR. The difference is Supercharged vs NA. You have an extra 1,500 to 2,000rpm to generate the power and achieve the performance. Max torque would be around 6k say? Whereas the Jag unit is max torque around 3,500 and there is plenty from just over tickover.
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576145
06/06/2016 17:04
06/06/2016 17:04
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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If you use the right pedal like a switch the traction control works overtime. Maximum torque of the basic 5.0 Supercharged is limited to 461 lb-ft, I think, but available from just 2500rpm to 5500rpm. The engine could deliver more but the gearbox was spared. So a progressive style is of driving makes a lot of sense. Most road tests complained about the rear tyres being overwhelmed but Jaguar did tend to put on quiet Dunlop SportMaxxs which were not the best out there. Even their own later RT version was quite a step up from the stock choice and even those never won any dry road tests. A Jaguar is not really supposed to be raw and these can feel more like piloting a low flying plane than driving a sports car. They are not really that raw
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576149
06/06/2016 17:28
06/06/2016 17:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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Why do big, heavy(ish) RWD cars with monstrous rear tyres and good quality rubber have problems putting power down, when I can use full power (in the dry at least) in a middleweight FWD Fiat with mid-range tyres? I agree about the performance though - by the time I'm getting a buzz out of my Coupe, I'd be heading for a custodial sentence if I was caught. I can go from standstill to prison in under 20 seconds, which means I'm putting as much effort into plod-spotting as I am into driving. Bloody good fun though......
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: Nigel]
#1576154
06/06/2016 18:50
06/06/2016 18:50
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Jonny
Unregistered
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Jonny
Unregistered
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Why do big, heavy(ish) RWD cars with monstrous rear tyres and good quality rubber have problems putting power down, when I can use full power (in the dry at least) in a middleweight FWD Fiat with mid-range tyres? I agree about the performance though - by the time I'm getting a buzz out of my Coupe, I'd be heading for a custodial sentence if I was caught. I can go from standstill to prison in under 20 seconds, which means I'm putting as much effort into plod-spotting as I am into driving. Bloody good fun though...... How much torque does yours produce lower down? It's not a problem to be honest. I know the right amount of throttle to launch perfectly and you're off like a scalded cat. However if you want to sit there going nowhere at 6k rpm you can
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576155
06/06/2016 19:05
06/06/2016 19:05
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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It's not a problem to be honest. I know the right amount of throttle to launch perfectly and you're off like a scalded cat. However if you want to sit there going nowhere at 6k rpm you can Exactly! All cars are a bit different and we need to tune ourselves into a new one, especially if it is particularly quick and we only drive on public roads. Just to put it into perspective have a look at these two curves, and the BMW is probably technically more sophisticated than the Jaguar too: http://www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2010/279860/bmw_m5.htmlhttp://www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2010/1293500/jaguar_xfr.html
Last edited by neil_r; 07/06/2016 00:31.
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576172
06/06/2016 22:23
06/06/2016 22:23
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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How much torque does yours produce lower down? I'm not exceeding 200 lb-ft until 3,000rpm - a consequence of the smaller displacement and the turbo (as opposed to a supercharger) I guess you're producing max torque by the time mine is just ramping up - my peak is about 380lb-ft by about 5,000rpm
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576179
06/06/2016 23:55
06/06/2016 23:55
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Jonny
Unregistered
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Jonny
Unregistered
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Yes that's the difference. My 413 ft/lb come in a fair bit earlier. Obviously yours has been specifically tuned to be tractable. An extra 100bhp and the same ft/lb is easy with these.
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576363
08/06/2016 19:32
08/06/2016 19:32
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Mines 461ftlb at 2450rpm through to around 5500rpm when I then have 507bhp... It's as liner as it gets!
Lucifer, where have you found flat even roads in the UK?? I'd love to fine one!
Trapped, my coupe is around 240 bhp and lowered on eibach / bilsteins and the jag goes round corners at double the pace the coupe could - but that's one of my 'complaints'. It's competent but once you push on its bloody dangerous!
I'm on 285 30 rears and 255 35 fronts, on anything but a good dry surface 1St is a nono. Yesterday it was 27 degrees and I got acceleration wheel spin at 40 in 3rd that was on a medium incline. (may have been a grate??) I have the proper p zero j spec tyres on the car.
Maybe it's that, having had the coupe for 5 years I'd got so used to chucking it round after having my e46 that I just haven't got the hang of it yet.
The xjs at 300hp 300ft lb feels absolutely fine being driven with aggression...
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576368
08/06/2016 20:26
08/06/2016 20:26
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Just looked at the power graph.. Looks like the engine is well sandbagged.
Svr f type is the same power unit and drive train (I believe the basic breathing is the same, mainly gearbox, engine and diff remaps). That has 520ft lb and 568 bhp.
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576369
08/06/2016 20:28
08/06/2016 20:28
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Also, the xfr also has the constantly adjusing / reacting suspension and an e-diff so it's probably not technology wise too far behind the bm - one advantage is I'm on sensible steering not the electronic stuff (that always seems to get bad press)
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576438
09/06/2016 11:10
09/06/2016 11:10
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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The problem is most modern cars limits are quite high and trying to find them on anywhere other than a safe track is probably a little unwise. When I got my Coupe, I came from a BX GTi which seemed pretty good but the FIAT would run rings around it. However, the FIATs grip is still at a level, even with good tyres that you can feel the limits at mortal speeds. My S-Type goes round the same corners without batting an eyelid, noticably faster. However it is already getting to speeds where I don't want to press my luck much further. The XKR is in another league still and if I lost it, it would be a very big "accident" indeed, or should one call it a very big certainty?
I have to slowly learn to feel where the limits of a car lie but I fear that these cars are just too fast and grippy to do that safely. Maybe I will take it on the more advanced driving course which includes some skidpan time ... hmm, now that is a thought!
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576445
09/06/2016 12:15
09/06/2016 12:15
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Lucifer
Unregistered
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Lucifer
Unregistered
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Lucifer, where have you found flat even roads in the UK?? I'd love to fine one!
Shavington bypass near Crewe
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576453
09/06/2016 13:37
09/06/2016 13:37
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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That's a fair drive for me, I'd need a tank to get there and back!
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576455
09/06/2016 13:42
09/06/2016 13:42
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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It's not always the car's limit, just feeling like you're driving it rather than just driving.
I don't do it often, but from 21 when I bought my HGT Bravo right through to the coupe I knew I could get up early on a sunny day and enjoy. Maybe it's partially age but to drive and enjoy the jag in the same way feels dangerously quick, anti social and just wrong. Not to drive it properly once in a while also feels a bit wrong. Just can't win.....
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576457
09/06/2016 13:53
09/06/2016 13:53
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,595 angus, scotland
jimbob13
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,595
angus, scotland
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That's a fair drive for me, I'd need a tank to get there and back! The area isn't that rough.
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576458
09/06/2016 14:08
09/06/2016 14:08
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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It probably is dangerously quick in my hands, hence my progressive approach to it. Also, I simply would not have bought it if I did not live here. The level of performance for the road is tbh pointless but nice when you can unleash some of it, even if only occasionally. The N.A. version is plenty quick enough and looks just as good but I was tired of always taking the sensible option! To really enjoy driving we need empty roads and they are becoming rare. I find that driving the XKR fast is fun even if it is well withing its abilities and not stressing mine too much. A 180mph car on a 60mph road is always going to be overkill. We just have to accept that it is not going to be driven by the scruff of its neck unless we go on a track but then I'm not sure I want to stress mine so much either, just in case it breaks - it is a Jaguar after all - there is paranoia other than coupe paranoia I wanted to slot into the fast lane of the dual carriageway this morning and not wanting to make the guy coming up on the outside to brake I used a lot of throttle form about 40mph. No traction problems - the car just picked a lower gear revs rose to 4.5/5k as it bolted forwards and my stomach went some other way. Maybe traction is not such a big deal in a straight line
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: jimbob13]
#1576460
09/06/2016 14:09
09/06/2016 14:09
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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That's a fair drive for me, I'd need a tank to get there and back! The area isn't that rough. But the locals are aggressive
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576472
09/06/2016 15:20
09/06/2016 15:20
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,391 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,391
Essex
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Is this your car? 2010 Jaguar XKR
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: XFR - too fast to have fun
[Re: ]
#1576475
09/06/2016 15:56
09/06/2016 15:56
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869 Germany
neil_r
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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That is the BMs XFR, yes. The XKR swaps a couple of doors for some aluminium panels.
Those C&D reports are really detailed!
1997 20V 2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR 2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD 2018 Mazda2 GT
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