I am off to vote . Every vote counts

I would, but was a little distracted by moving countries. I found our polling cards a couple of days ago, but nipping back poses logistical issues. Shame, because for once, I feel that an "anyone but UKIP" might actually be useful.

Still waiting for a legally binding 'none of the above' to appear on voting sheets, but I will be voting.

The only time in my life I have not voted when I had the ability to was for the police commissioners.

I filled in my postal vote, but have I put it in the post? Nope, forgotten to do it Still, I did vote for the Roman party

What's the deal with ukip then? I've not really put any thought in to vote and didn't do my registration card.

I voted a couple of weeks ago by postal vote, for UKIP. They are the only party who will break up the LibLabCon monopoly we've had for years, and will try to do what's best for Britain rather than continue to sell us out to the EU/Brussels who amongst many other negative things are responsible for inflating the cost of living for us.

Jim, if you choose to vote for 'anyone but UKIP' does that mean none of the other parties appeal strongly to you? I expect so, as the other parties don't really have anything going for them do they.

Seems the vote rigging has started though, so much for living in a UK democracy!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8083435.stm

Dan, without resurrecting the previous discussion, I do indeed find that none of the other parties offer anything that appeals to me; a state of affairs that is lamentable but not new. This should go some way to demonstrating just how much UKIP repels me, that I would consider (almost) any other party in preference. As I say, I'm not attempting to recommence this particular debate; you have your point of view and I have mine.

Edited to add: I'd have thought being able to unfold a single piece of paper might be regarded as within the skill-set of anyone wielding their democratic right to vote. But you can call it ballot-rigging if you like...

^^ That BBC link is from 2009.

I've never voted and won't be today, but if it was compulsory I'd vote UKIP as a protest vote.

Jim, the papers are not meant to be given out folded. The fact that some polling stations are carefully folding the bottom section back on itself is ballot-rigging no matter how trivial it might seem to you or I.

Well spotted Graham. This link highlights the same thing is happening again in 2014: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/22/ukip-ballot-paper-elections_n_5370711.html

I voted in the European elections.

I spoiled my ballot paper in the local elections with the words "none of the above" and yes, there was a UKIP candidate standing.

Are UKIP actually suggesting that some people who may vote for them won't do so because they don't immediately see their name on the ballot paper?

How do they think the thought process of their voters plays out?

"Right, I'm a hard working white British person who doesn't want to live next door to Romanians so I'm going to vote UKIP. Oh, that's odd. They don't appear to be on the ballot paper at first glance. I won't bother checking under this fold at the bottom, I'll just assume they've pulled out of the election."

If voting is meant to be a secret ballot why does the voting slip and counter foil have a serial number! Which can be traced back to the voter

Indeed, I've wondered that for years and it's one of the reasons I don't vote.

The UK security services have admitted in the past to compiling lists of people who voted for "undesirable" political parties by checking ballot papers after an election.

It does seem an odd thing to have, but it is there to deter electoral fraud.

Part of the count process reconciles the number of votes put in the ballot box against voting papers issued and if there is a discrepancy the serial numbers can be used to identify any illegitimate ballots which can be investigated further.

No, they're not.

The Green's are the only party that not only has the potential to break up the current 3 party system, but actually effect real change in terms of economic policy.

UKIP are just as neoliberal in terms of economic and monetary policy as the Conservatives, if not more so (hard to provide evidence as UKIP seem unable to produce any policies in hard copy). Hardly surprising for a party run and funded by ex-Tories.

Do you realise your "best for Britain" hopes are in the hands of neoliberal extremists who have the worst attendance record of ANY political party in the EU parliament?

Surely we can do better.

Sources:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/where-have-ukips-absent-meps-really-been-8160595.html
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk//news/home...nations-to-ukip
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/23/nigel-farage-ukip-2010-election-manifesto

Thank you the Huffington Post!

Never going to happen . In the mid 1990 they were electable to a certain extent but not now . All they want to do is put up taxes and stop everyone from driving their cars on the road . For now the green party are finished and are no a treat to any of the 4 main parties . Roll on 24 hours and Farage will be grinning like a cat ,Dave and Millibland will put on a brave face and Clegg will go missing (preferably up his own backside ). Anything can happen


[/quote]

I think with that Clarkonesque nonsense you've just summed up better than I could why the Green's won't be getting anywhere, sadly.

The Greens have a perfectly accessible and well laid out manifesto, that you would probably find most agreeable if you actually read it.

What I am trying to put across, is that your faith in UKIP and how its somehow a real alternative to the LibLabCon status quo is utterly misplaced.

Dismiss the Green's all you want, many do, but don't insult yourself by believing that a vote for UKIP is a vote for change.

EDIT: Just re-read my post and will apologise for the tone.

No offence intended, although I stand by my points

So what is on the manifesto fit ukip then?
And the greens for that matter.
I'll go look.....

Full Green Party manifesto: http://greenparty.org.uk/assets/files/European%20Manifesto%202014.pdf

Full UKIP manifesto: http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/the....pdf?1398167812

Let the people decide and come back tomorrow and see what percent of votes the green party have got . I dont think you get it . We have had labour and tories/liberals in power same old same old . Nothing new . What UKIP does is give people a better chance of deciding if they want to remain a part of europe or not .Whether its good or bad i dont know . You seem to think i have voted for UKIP . I was merely predicting the outcome of the election tomorrow
The only green point i would agree with "is turning the minimum wage into a living wage "

UKIP Head of policy Tim Aker last night warned voters not to believe Labour’s misinformation and lies about the party.

Mr Aker confirmed UKIP’s commitment to the NHS free at the point of delivery – despite groups linked to Labour claiming the opposite.

Polls out last weekend have shown that more black and ethnic minority voters are going to turn out and vote UKIP today than the Lib Dems and Tories put together, so I still find it amusing when people think UKIP is a white-only party. We have the hugely bias media to thank for that.

barnacle, it's amusing the lengths other parties will go to in order to smear UKIP in order to attempt to safeguard the bubble they've enjoyed for too long now. There are numerous lies thrown about by Labour et. al about UKIP wanting to end maternity pay etc. They don't want this, yet people blindly believe the slurs generated by other parties. There are people out there who are determined to stop UKIP, because we have had a 2.5 party system for 100 years and UKIP are posing a threat to the establishment.

What I like about UKIP, is they talk about themselves, what they are going to do and why you should vote for them. The other parties, it seems, prefer to talk about why you shouldn't vote UKIP.

one4seven - a party run and funded by ex-Tories? Not quite. Just one example - http://www.economicvoice.com/leading-member-of-labour-finance-and-industry-group-joins-ukip/

As for the poor attendance in the EU parliament, a lot of MEPs emigrate and live in Strasbourg/Brussels, hence why their attendance is higher.

I have no doubt that UKIP will beat the Green's when the results are announced.

I would again simply make the point that voting for UKIP on the basis that they represent "real change" is a fallacy. This is what I think you don't get.

I like the part about animals but this party is pro EU and does not want to stop migration from outside the EU . Which in my opinion is crazy . Plus i reckon they would put green taxes on everything .

DTM, I doubt you're going to convince me. I dislike pretty much all the parties - in fact, I detest the party system - but I dislike Farage and his merry men more.

When a 'did not vote' means 'a vote against everyone' then I might have some faith in politics.

UKIP and the mainstream parties are all playing the same game - the leading three mudslinging and discrediting UKIP and the UKIP tin-foil-hat conspiracists seeing skulduggery at every turn.

To my mind, the rise of UKIP is just another symptom of the wretchedness of the state of UK politics. The disengagement and disenchantment of voters is an appalling situation for a supposedly mature democracy to find itself in. In such circumstances, UKIP has unsurprisingly found fertile ground to promote its "common sense/common man" message and it will undoubtedly do very well at these elections, managing to encourage turnout higher than in recent times, I wouldn't wonder.

But.

As one4seven eloquently said, if you are looking for a party to "break the mould" (ha, remember the SDP?!) and bring hope of genuinely fresh thinking or a new era to British politics, UKIP is categorically NOT it. Whatever it claims, (and it's manifesto and spokespeople fail to counter the accusation), it's a single-issue party. The clue is in the name and the sequestration of the £ logo and it is a fundamentally negative issue at that. It's basically saying "Oi, Europe, NOOOOO!" And that's it.

Like Barnacle, I don't want what ANY of them are selling and "none of the above" as a legitimate political statement is long overdue.

It's probably fair to say that the Green Party do offer the only radical manifesto in UK politics, but its message won't be clearly heard because it's not sexy enough for the media. I disagree with enough of their policies to rule them out too, anyway.

Fararge doesn't seem to come from the "oxford" background and wasn't a member of the

"Bullingdon club"

Members of the outrageously filthy rich can get in.
Hence David Cameron, George Osborne and Boris Johnson were all members.

It's been alleged that initiation into the club involved the burning of a fifty pound note in front of a homeless person.

I never knew that Osborne was "tite" with the Rothschilds.

Clearing up the mess will of course be left to the real politicians after UKIP get in, get us out of Europe then realise writing some policies and employing one or two people with a degree in economics might have been a good idea.

To semi-quote the fantastic Stewart Lee on the subject, a protest vote for UKIP is like complaining about the service at a hotel by shitting all over the sheets. Then realising you have to spend the night in a shitty bed.

Too much propaganda in politics, no one knows what's real or fake, truth or lie. I think the biggest reform we need is that of the press making shit up and parties trash talking others. Serious politics died years ago.

I hope a small party has a landslide victory, don't give a hoot which one, as long as it wakes the main parties up to real life.

I don't claim to be an expert in politics, nor did I even vote today (lost my voting slip) but I was totally amazed by the humongous list of parties - most of which I've never even heard of????

By that reckoning, to deliver said excrement to the bed sheets, would surely make Farage an arse hole?

Couldn't resist.

In this metaphor I would suggest that the UKIP favouring electorate are in fact the arse hole, they are after all the means of delivery; Mr Farage is merely the foul smelling aftermath.

Or if you stand outside any polling station and ask anyone going in to vote would they like closer ties with Europe (as the greens do) your answer will most likely be no . Nothing radical about that then .

Source?

According to recent YouGov polling (here), a higher percentage of people would vote to remain in the EU than to leave.

The same tracker also shows a high proportion of people think we'd be worse off as a country if we left and an even higher proportion of people think we'd have less influence in world affairs.

Margin of error is . Look at january 2014 of people who wanted to leave plus 21 % are undecided .Its a sliding poll over time either way .

Aye, its not Gospel obviously, but is certainly better than hear-say.

When do we think results will be in?

Robcoupe20vt - you chose just 1 issue on which to base your assertion that the Green Party isn't radical - the one issue that all the most reactionary parties view differently (assuming that the Tories would prefer to pull out of Europe, given free choice). Being radical doesn't mean automatically nay-saying the views of others, it's about the reasoning behind your choices.

This thread sums up perfectly the fact that a huge section of the UK population feel that our voting system is pointless. Take my area. Any vote today for ANY party other than Lib Dem is basically a vote for the Conservatives

Alarmingly many people seem to feel that placing a Vote for UKIP sends out a message for change, a protest vote

The truth is it doesn’t.

At best it affords some failed Lab/con dipstick, now UKIP politician, who will probably not attend most of the EU parliamentary sessions, a £150,000 salary. His lack of participation will mean that the EU will be less likely to be reformed, something it desperately needs.
At worst it will make the three other parties stronger. Yes they may knee jerk into offering tough talk on some pseudo issues that UKIP have raised. In reality though it just allows them off the hook of dealing with the real issues.

So, as a protest vote it’s a farce, those against REFORM (Generally conservative types) will argue that changing our voting system would allow loonies like UKIP to obtain power.

There really does need to be reform of our system. We need to be rid of first past the post system. Our politicians should represent the nations voting. In most UK governments since the war more of the electorate voted for something other than the government they had. MPs should represent our wishes, not theirs.

Also a "NONE OF THE ABOVE" option should be availavble. This would allow people to properly protest and not, as currently, afford some manipulative self interested single issue Fwit to piggy back his way to a job.

The media should be banned from backing any political party or type of party.
Parties should only be allowed to state fact, proper facts and not lying through statistical data.
Not a single person actually knows what're impact would be on leaving the eu, knows the real tax money wasted, the impact of immigration and emigration or even what the real crime numbers are.
How can even educated people be expected to make sound judgement on economic policies with all the bullshit about? Social aspects are more personal and could sway a voter as these are the direction you'd like to see the country go and not so fact based.
All political parties end up causing an issue for one group of society and favour another, there is very little chance of getting an equilibrium as that would mean agreeing to everything that everyone wanted.

They will be in after the weekend when all member states have held their elections.

I think almost everyone else hold theirs at the weekend.

They're being released on Sunday, according to R4 this morning.

UKIP as a protest vote isn't about even reading their manifesto. They are the bogeyman worrying the Big 2, so a vote for UKIP would be used as an attempt to re-focus them. Remember the horror when BNP won 2 European seats in 2009?

I think some people need to wake up about the EU. Anyone that thinks it will be reformed is DELUDED.

The EU is a machine intent on absorbing as many countries as possible in order to enrich the unelected political elite and their cohorts. It's corrupt. There is no transparency. The court of auditors has not signed off the EU accounts for over 18 years! The money taken from us in taxes is being wasted on a vast scale, yet still we pump money into it...OUR hard earned money.

Perhaps all those seemingly in love with the EU would care to explain why they so desperately want to be a part of it?

Please sing another song Dan.

This is why i don't vote....don't know enough about it and even if i did, they never keep to their word so what is the point!

Plenty of good reasons here from independent, not-for-profit organisation EuroMove.

According to figures from 2012, the EU wasted around 4.8% of its budget that year (around £800 million of which was paid by UK tax payers).

Whilst this sounds like a lot of money, it represents around 0.12% of UK government spending (£676 billion, 2009/10 figures).

Given the various benefits to EU membership outlined in my first link, do you not think 0.12% is a reasonable "hit" to take?

Well I hope you are all very happy with yourselves for ensuring that UKIP plonker gets more air time!

If it wasn't for the World cup the TV would be knackered!

Well everything looks good and dandy So whats the downside of been part of the EU and dont tell me there is not one .

Ha! Clearly a pretty pro-EU website, so their claim that they are independent and not-for-profit is irrelevant. Let's take their page titled 'The UK in the EU – What They Say' where they pour out quotes from various sources why we should remain in the EU, yet offer no quotes from anyone as to why we should leave the EU. I've read what's written there and a lot of it is just not true or is scaremongering.

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=6623

The major downside of EU membership is that we loose a certain amount of control over things such as our exchange rate, monetary and fiscal policy.

How big a deal this is, is obviously the subject of great many debates!

EDIT: DTM - I'm not sure how to continue a debate with you. I offer you politic bias as to why we are better off in the EU, I offer you the thoughts of an independent non profit organization who reach the conclusion that EU membership is probably a good thing and all you do is disagree with nothing to back up your opinions.

Flogging a dead horse?

The 4.8% only covers misspend on projects. This doesn't give the full picture. What about all other areas of the budget? Until the auditors give a full seal of approval, we'll never know. Pretty poor considering the EU have had 19 years to get their books in order!

And, you haven't mentioned the fact that the 4.8% is a 23% increase on the previous year's figure, the 3rd consecutive year it's risen. So what of 2013, and what's to come in 2014?

Sorry, DTM, did you accuse that website of scaremongering...?
Pot, kettle...

Every time anyone produces anything that isn't ANTI EU, you accuse it and the poster of bias. Given your repeatedly stated position, I think you might need to recalibrate your point of non-bias. You have proven, going back to the previous thread, highly adept at pat, smooth soundbites, but short on the kind of impartial evidence you imperiously demand from those who don't share your views.

It's very hard to argue in those circumstances - and nothing to do with the value of the arguments.

Another Huff post gem

one4seven, I have provided plenty of examples to back up my opinions, which you've ignored. Here is another: VAN ROMPUY: IF THE PUBLIC DOESN'T WANT EU EXPANSION, 'WE DO IT ANYWAY'

I ask you again, are you happy living within this dictatorship?

I suggest you read the comments section at the bottom as it really does raise some thought-provoking ideas.

So, let me get this right, DTM; you dismiss one4seven's website because it is clearly "biased". Yet the hilarious neo-con drivel you linked to is proper "evidence". I think this may go nowhere fast...

They are Van Rompuy's actual comments. I am stating a fact, do you deny he said that?

I am amused at how you resort to referring to my link as hilarious neo-con drivel in an attempt to discredit it, due to you having no counter argument to defend Van Rompuy's comments, and because it doesn't agree with your (liberal fascist??) views.

We can both post endless links purporting to show one side or t'other. The main point I was trying to make was that the way you frame a message distorts it entirely. The site you chose as a vehicle for Von Rompuy's words effectively negated what you were attempting to say. We both know that you can distort anything according to the message you want to give out. Watch some Cassette Boy videos - the people still say the words but the framing alters the message.
We're not going to agree on this, so let's leave it - I hope your worst fears don't come true, nor mine.

I would vote for Farage if he was true to his message and the first immigrants he got rid of were his own family. It's not just his wife who is German, his own family were German immigrants who ironically changed their name from "Schrod" during the First World War to avoid being lynched by the screaming bigots who were out to burn down anything that looked foreign. And they would have come into the UK without any form of immigration control, because despite the lies he and his nutjobs spread, there were NO immigration controls at all here until after 1905.

Nutjob:Completely insane or crazy person. Someone who has totally lost the plot. You may not agree with U K I P but using words like nut job is inaccurate and at best childish .

Nutjob: One who thinks gay marriage causes floods, or that Lenny Henry should be sent "back to a black country" , perhaps even "Bongo Bongo Land" That women are worthless and worth less or even more worrying someone who thinks that the person to get rid of immigrants, get the better of the public schoolboy politicians and stop the bankers getting out of control is a public school educated immigrant banker.

Is it acceptable to want Lenny Henry sent somewhere they think he's funny?

Got to love this story - even [cloud9] admit they mainly appeal to the dimwitted

Link doesn't work for me...

Well i see you have been reading all the negative press that has been thrown at U k i p leading up to the local elections . Yes the people who said this are wrong and they should have been vetted better standing on their behalf . Its like saying all tories and labour polititions are expenses cheats some of who have gone to jail .
The comment about Lenny Henry is racist and its up to the authorities to deal concerned . I remember back in 2012 a local labour Mp to me Diane Abbott made a racist tweet and nearly lost her job over it and was in mid interview and got a call from the party leader Millibland to apologise .Also a certain tory MP Alan Clark made a similar comment "bongo bongo land " in the past .Another Tory councillor John Cherry resigns over 'openly racist language' after saying 'there are certain nationalities where they are uncertain what this hard work is all about' .Another Labour MP Ian Lavery, MP for Wansbeck,in 'racist' photo .
Liberal democrate makes racist comment http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/01/lib-dem-anti-islam-candidate/ .
My point is the internet is full of idiots making racist comments . In my local elections on thursday they had no U k i p canidates on the ballot paper .

Islam isn't a race.

That's because some stupid has set the swear-bot to relace UK1P with .

Correction then the liberal democrate candidate is an islamaphobe
1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture

I voted, though not for UK1P.

Nor for the BNP, the Christian Peoples Alliance, nor the English Democrats.

Should (god forbid) any of the UK1P candidates be elected for my region, they can suspect regular emails with regard how well they are representing my views and interests in the European Parliament. I suspect I will be disappointed.


Reading their 8 page manifesto for the EU elections (that's 8 pages, with a full picture on the front and the back and another 3 in the middle), they don't appear, beyond pulling us out of the EU, to stand for anything.

So, a vote for them is a vote for what exactly? As a public school educated, ex-merchant banker, one might assume that his political instincts will be somewhere to the right of the Tories.
With the removal of the evil social protections forced on us by the evil EU, which presumably will all be rolled back ,so that's equal pay & rights, decent holiday pay, maternity leave, employee protections all gone.

Guessing the rest of the EU will merrily carry on without us, and they will me more than in their rights to tell us to get stuffed should we ask for a trade deal to be allowed to sell all these lovely things we make, leaving us where? Trading with the Russians, Chinese or the Americans. Yep there is nothing to go wrong there is there?


Feel massively let down by all 3 established parties in refusing to actually engage them in a serious political debate, leaving Farage to wander around with his personal news crews to allow him to show what a man-of-the-people-smoking-pint-drinking-salt-of-the-earth-top-bloke he is, rather than the foreigner-employing, 5th generation immigrant that he is.

Of course the young, educated and cultured didn't buy into it.


If they get even a sniff of proper power, do you think the Scot's will allow us all to move up there??

Better.

I don't think anyone could deny that there is probably the odd member in the other parties who have contentious views, but they seem to be a lot more prevalent in UKIP.

I can't imagine why though.

If you read my post again its fact not hersay . And you have stats to back that statement up or it that your opinion .All the racist comments made by the other three parties are freely availible online .

Eh??? I was agreeing with you at first when I said...



And then I went on to say...



Which I'm not claiming to be a fact (take not of the highlight word and its relevance in this sentence).

In not going to sit here and trawl through everything that every politician has ever said. I'll let the media do that and I'll choose which source of media to trust.

Point taken .I am not here to defend uk1p its just everytime i hear a wanna be elected official /elected official make a racist comment i remember it from any party .

No that's their whole point. We won't be able to move anywhere.

What I find annoying is that The UK independence Party NEVER, ever explain how they would leave the EU. All we hear is that they would like to have an arrangement similar to those had by Norway or Switzerland. Well BOTH those countries still do PAY into the EU. And both still HAVE to allow FREE MOVEMENT OF LABOUR too! They both must make any products they wish to export to the EU conform to ALL those nasty EU regulations too. Nether of them though has any say in EU regulation. So, they both seem to have to endure all the things that a certain "single Issue" party in the UK wishes not to have

An independent UK sounds great, to some. It seems to bring back memories of empire, Rule Britania and all that. Most of us realise that everywhere else has moved on though. There is no empire and our colonial brothers have moved on and signed deals with new partners, so they don't need us. We were once a great nation but we are no more, two big wars and the end of empire saw to that.

Sadly in the future we may need the EU membership far more than it needs us. I'm sure if we left getting back in would be even more expensive and on much worse terms, if we could even get in.

Thankfully I don't think that our nation has as many idiots as the single issue party would like to think. And yes they do think we are idiots. They have offered something, a sound bite, but have not shown anything to suggest they could deliver, they wouldn't be the first party to have their leader say "I'm Sorry."

Clearly MOST people who voted for them didn't do so because they saw any great political insight, they voted because they thought it a giggle. People are dissatisfied with our crop of politicians & the fact they can't stand up for anything. Take "Red" Ed this week. On one hand he said "Immigration is good for the nation" and then straight after "immigration needs to be controlled" FFS that is so middle of the road it's a shock not to see a white line painted on his suit. Mr Camergoon is no better with his bloody endless "Hard Working People" rubbish. What the heck does that mean? Is he talking to me? Then there is the other "I'm Sorry" Muppet. He made a deal with the Tories, a deal that has just about killed off his party.

So a vote for Mr "I'm a normal bloke, just like you, honest guv" was made, by many to give those others a bloody nose. One just hopes it will wake the others up and make them start to realise that if they don't nail their colours to the mast then we will all be buggered!

Sadly I feel they may not yet have learnt the lesson

This is a thoughtful article on the situation in British politics...

channel 4 blog

Interesting piece that, I would suggest that we could face more coalition governments in the future as no one party appears to be able to gain enough clear support. Only question is who would be in it?

Why would we need the EU in the future or for what reason rather than your hersay . France and Germany are going throught the same process as us and people in their countries want less ties with europe or out all together . Who knows what would happen if the UK left the Eu . We would still trade with europe as they need us as much as we need them .Who would buy peugeots, bmws , Vws and Audis . The Uk buys the largest amount of Ferraris in europe .There is a lot at stake with other countries if the UKK was to leave . The Eu may collaspe and alot of greedy MEPs would suffer .
"Clearly MOST people who voted for them didn't do so because they saw any great political insight, they voted because they thought it a giggle. People are dissatisfied with our crop of politicians & the fact they can't stand up for anything."
And this statement is based on your opinion not facts ?

The simplest of reasons? Tax. We can buy items cheaply from Europe due to the removal of import taxes because of free trade agreements. Just look at what happens if you buy an item on eBay from the US as opposed to from an EC country - you get screwed by HMRC.

And everything said in this thread is someone's opinions, it's just that some, like the one you draw attention to , are based on facts - like the many people who were interviewed on TV and radio clearly stating that they have absolutely no intention of voting for Schrod-Farage at a general election but want to send a wake-up call to the other politicians.

robcoupe20vt, in France (where I lived for almost 20 years) and in Spain (where I live now), there is a very limited debate about leaving or disbanding the EU. My understanding from within is that the UK has always been viewed popularly as a tiresome, spoilt child, stamping its feet and running to the Americans, rather than making a commitment to being part of Europe as continental Europeans see it.
Unsurprisingly (we are an island after all) we really do see it differently. But where we get all tabloid about the shape of bananas or the disgraceful amount of waste there is, most European countries would actually rather try and mend it.
It's an extraordinarily different proposition to harmonise such a vast, disparate group of nations and cultures and it may prove to be over ambitious, looking back on decades to come. But the point of the EU is not specifically to help Nigel Farage and his little Englanders, it's to help Europe as a continent move forward in the face of larger and more powerful economic blocs.
It actually may just not be a case of trying to find evidence on the internet as to who is "right" or "wrong" about such a dauntingly complex issue. I've lived for much of my adult life outside the UK and my instinct (paradoxically as a more British-feeling person than before I left) is that the UK would be desperately exposed if exiled from Europe, yet there are many things within the EU that leave me baffled, angry and upset - as they do with any large organisation trying to square a billion acres of circles.

The article I linked to above makes an excellent point: a significant proportion of those British people who are disengaged with the current major parties think in a paradigm that the latter cannot connect with. What has always been assumed to be axiomatic to "right" thinking people actually isn't; they don't like foreigners (at least not being involved in determining what Britain does within its shores), they don't believe that being outward looking is intrinsically better and they do believe that Britain (or more specifically, England...) is somehow superior.

It's going to take some nifty ideological thinking to make attracting that electorate acceptable to a lot of current politicians.

No that's not true. Most Europeans do want the EU to reform, few want out.



Exactly - nobody, especially not you or I. But if you bothered to read the work YOUR government has produced on studying this very question you may find some the facts differ from the UK1P and other anti EU hysteria & propaganda. If, as a nation decide to stay in or leave please let it be an informed and factual debate. Many of the in and out protagonists don't really want what is better for you and I, they want what is better for themselves



We THINK this is the case. Perhaps the UK demand for luxury goods is due to the fact we are in Europe, and prosperous as a result. The UK market benefits from having lower business taxes than many European states, hence investment in the UK to get access to Europe. If we were no longer in then why would foreign investment stay. Such a decision, made lightly could cost the UK a lot of jobs if foreign investment didn't see the UK as a route into the EU.




It is my hope, honestly the party we speak of are haven't really got a clue how to run a country. Their previous manifesto made it clear that "Hard Working People" would pay a high price for the implementation of their "IDEAS." Politics isn't easy, and nor should it be. In the UK winning votes has started to become a popularity contest or single issue game. This week real issues got lost behind this complete and utter rubbish. Tony Benn, Mrs T and the many other political idealists who worked their way through the political system, serving their electorate, for years before ever getting into high profile politics, must be spinning in their graves. Farage is an opportunist who is in it for himself, and a section of our nation seem happy to keep the rich boy accustomed to his lifestyle.

I bet most folks didn't even realise that in the week we were all discussing immigration, and in or out of Europe, there was a discussion taking place where it was tabled that we should introduce charging for doctors visits and non emergency healthcare treatment.

Well, we may soon find out!

Perhaps the problem is the Euro zone and not the politicians!

BUT! I have no faith in any of the 3 main parties and i think this is what has done UKIP a big favour regarding votes at the moment

I don't recall there being a frenzy like this back in the 90's when the Euro Zone was not as Big!?

So is it the Greed of the Euro machine wanting everybody to join even some countries that perhaps should not of?

We all just want a level playing field but it does seem to slope in favour of immigrants at the moment so you cant blame them for wanting to come over who in there right mind would miss an opportunity like this, its not the immigrants fault its the system!

I AM! however, concerned with the amount of immigrants, as i am worried for the Future of my children! this does not make me Racist! just very concerned!

I don't think the Euro on the whole is bad but what it has become is!

So not just UK protest voting. And "France for the French"...interesting times to come I think.

Yes, so much for my earlier assertion!

The whole eu was in melt down, France and Germany footed the brunt of the financial bill, you'd expect them (the french) to be a little peeved.

It's important for the usual suspects to get a hit of reality, brings them closer to what the people who they represent want.

What exactly is it about the amount of immigrants that concerns you?

And so we're clear I'm asking from a point of genuine interest, not to label anyone in a particular way or assume a particular point of view.

Exactly that the amount!

But what about the amount? What does the number have to do with anything?

The most pro Eu party (Liberal Democrates) in this country gets wiped out and is left with one remaining MEP . The party that wants to leave the Eu get the most MEPs . The people who bothered to vote have spoken . I think the Uk1p vote is beyond a protest vote and between the UK . France ,Sweden, Denmark and Hungary people are fed up with the EU and mass Immigration . Interesting times ahead for the French .

I will never get how Liberals think . When is too many people coming to live in this country . When we are living on top of each other ? Question:do liberls want no border control and let all of the world that decides to head to the UK come and go as they like . It must be one or the other . Which is it .

The Lib Dem collapse is surely nothing to do with Europe. They were the middle-class-but-with-a-social-conscience party for those who found both the Conservatives and Labour unplatable (for different reasons), but given a taste of power they fold like a cheap deckchair and make their supporters chose either the devil or the deep blue sea.

Also, how does it follow that voting an anti-EU party inidcates people are fed up with 'mass immigration'? How, from the many factors of EU membership, do you manage to ascertain that is the one causing problems?

Well I thought I asked a simple question, but apparently not simple enough for you.



Leaving aside your inability to ask a clear question, I'd invite you (again) to view the EU as a formative USA. Nobody worries about, say, how many people from Delaware are going to live in Texas, because it's a ridiculous thing to worry about.

And so it is here. A free market, a single currency and centralised regulation mean that, inevitably, over time things will stabalise. We'll be a richer, stronger, more European culture for mingling and it will seem stupid as backward to support the UK leaving the EU as it would to support California leaving the US.

So, yes, I support open borders within the EU and for migrants and asylum seekers outside the EU, our hands are tied by international law, which leaving the EU will have no impact on.

Oh, and FFS, we're not living on top of each other. About 10% of the UK is developed, we could fit another 10 million people in here without even struggling.

The main problem with immigrants appears to be that they come here, work, remain fit and healthy, pay taxes, don't take as much from the social services as the locals do, don't need pensions for thirty or forty years... oh wait, are these problems?

The big issue in the UK is nothing to do with immigration - it's far more to do with cost of living and in particular the cost of housing. Which need solutions, to be sure, but which are nothing to do with the language spoken by the people who will live in them.

Space wise. Housing, the NHS, Education and other infratsructure would collapse without significant expenditure and expansion.

The uk is effectively over populated, oversubscribed and as a result the average man on the street is suffering in one way or another, it's difficult or near impossible to get into doctors or dentists, hospital appointments, jobs now seem to be cheapened as employers are now taking advantage of the excess supply of people, possibly helped by the recession! Businesses are generally doing very well out of this

We need a points system and restrictions on numbers also perhaps a reform in benefits to hopefully deter the immigrants that just want to come to rip off the benefits system and only attract the ones that want to make a new life here and contribute to the country with tax and NI

I do not want to leave the euro but if no control is brought back, in years to come we will have hardly anything left to be shouting about

The USA is huge and I think a better comparison would be the thousands of Mexicans that try to migrate to the USA! I'm certain the Americans are quite vocal about that

Oh ffs without a massive build of houses ,hospitals ,schools and roads this is not possible . Do you seriously think any party is going to do this just so millions more can come here . NO never going to happen .This is one reason why immigration should be limited .

Sorry, but this is just a big "reckon"! Where are ANY facts to back it up. "Man in the street" anecdotal assertions based on what fits with your worldview. I don't mean to be dismissive, but you can't base an immigration policy on bar-room calculations.

Ok i answer this one slower for you . The USA is one massive country . People dont move around in the hundreds of thousands as they do here in europe . They have alot of space and houses are generally bigger and cheaper . Most states have alot in common and the Americans are very patriotic .In the EU we have our own national identity This is one of the reasons in London why house prices and rent are so high . Plus the population of the US is nearly 350 million and the uk 65 million a ratio of over 5 to 1 . If people did move around in the hundreds of thousand s in the us they would have similar infrastucture problem as we do .

Sorry Jim but that's what this is all about, the perception on the street.
It's the governments job to either state the facts without any spin or put it right both of which nobody is doing! (two or three or even four opposing parties can't all be right)

Also this forum is just people's opinions it's not worth trying to state facts as everybody will have a different set of facts to draw from! I'm not bothered that yours or anybody else's opinion is different to mine, it's good to have different opinions! So don't get too bothered that I'm stating mine and it's different to anyone else's!

This is just my perception I'm not trying to drum anything into anybody else! And you know what, ones personal "perception" is never incorrect! Just may not be factual or true

People's opinions on this issue will largely vary according to personal circumstances, wealth, social status, business owners and if they have married into an immigrants family etc.

I have no issue with being part of Europe but am concerned that it's getting out of hand.

There is nothing wrong with controlled immigration and I think that's what most of us want!

Well that's my "perception" anyway

We are an island race and with that mentality, we don't even like people coming into our gardens without permission.

We have a lot of space in Europe as well and although America is relatively homogenised now it used to be very different; a mix of languages, cultures and racial origins. People pulled together and made one country and there's no reason that we can't do the same with Europe.

People is the US do move from state to state in their hundreds of thousands and there are vast differences in house prices and rent - why don't you go and see how much it would cost to rent an apartment in Manhattan?

The US does have a much higher population than the UK, but what we're comparing is the US vs Europe, and there are around 500m Europeans.

The point is that if we form a collective super-state then, over time, a free market will iron out most of the regional differences. There'll still be local fluctuations in house prices, naturally, but by and large the cost of living will be level.

As an aside, the infrastructure problems that we have here - health care, education, etc. are the very things that UK1P are planning to cut spending on, in order to give tax breaks to their rich mates. Immigrants into the UK are paying into the treasury (you can't just stroll into the UK and start claiming benefits), yet in real terms NHS spending has fallen every year since the current government came in. If you want better infrastructure then vote for a party that's promising to deliver that, not a party that is going to destroy it, but is distracting you with a handy scapegoat.

No problem; I was taking issue with the way you expressed it before, seemingly as fact. Which, I think we've established, is not possible!

AndrewR I think you should stop comparing the EU to the USA and instead hold your comparison to the old USSR, for that is what the EU is becoming almost indistinguishable from.

Hopefully, it'll soon collapse like it too.

And for those who trot out the 'Britain is a nation of immigrants' line, and who need quantifying on what is too much:

In 1851, 1.5% of the population was born overseas.
In 1951 it was 4.3%.
In 2001 it was 9%.
And then the numbers jumped. Between 2001-2011 the size of the foreign born population increased by 3 million to 7.5 million.
2011 - 13% of the population born overseas.

Does this now give you an idea of why UKIP were so successful and why the average Brit is completely fed up with the mass influx we've had to endure and have now decided enough is enough?

It's a bit more complex than simple statistics, though , isn't it? For example, my brother, my Mum and my 2 daughters were born overseas and they'd all pass any UKIP "British test". Not to mention the millions of second, third, etc generation immigrants who don't come into the figures.

The problem with this immigration argument is that it harks back to some golden age when Britain was... what? We're the most mongrel nation on earth.

Not to mention the fact that we went around the world with our flag, stealing other people's countries and wealth, which explains the prosperity Great Britain acquired and which some people would still like today...

The world is a different place; I'd rather adapt than try the King Canute approach.

Also, on what evidential grounds would you claim that the EU is more like the USSR than the USA? I'd be really interested to know.

I chuckled at this too.

DTM - Do you even read what you type?!

The other thing is that the number of immigrants doesn't matter! If you're talking about infrastructure needs then the important figures are the number of economically active people versus the number of inactive ones, and as it's much harder for people to enter this country if they're economically inactive immigration isn't a big factor in making things worse for people in this country.

More immigrants do drive faster cultural changes, but so what? Our culture has been in a state of constant flux for thousands of years and will continue changing long after we're all gone. We've never been able to pin it down or decide to roll it back to what it was in some misremembered rosy past.

If we're talking about the 1850's and into the 1900s, there was a huge influx of people to work in the industrial revolution. Particularly if you use Wales as an example. Workers from Ireland, Italy, Spain, Poland even Russia came to settle.

So looking back to the 1800's doesn't help to demonstrate that the UK was somehow without immigration.

I would rather stay part of the EU, but I do hold some reservations over the rate of immigration simply for the "space" issue raised above. Yes, we can fit more people in, but we are a densely populated country. My preference is to live in a country which is not too heavily populated. Simples. Having said that, I recognise that we have the choice to go abroad if we like, so it is reasonable to accept immigration knowing that I can be an emigrant if I want.

Going back to the 1900s - 1950s, 500,000 people from Wales then emigrated due to the collapse of industry... many to England, but also to US, Australia and elsewhere. This just demonstrates the flux in population in the UK over the centuries.

I'm holding off going back to the Danelaw in the East of England... that's a whole different story of immigration !

At the end of the day no party in charge is going to do what they should for the people.
They will only do what's best to line their own pockets and the big business they represent.

Division is how it works best.

Division doesn't work, we have that at the moment and it's pretty pants. What we need are politicians that have actually held a job and lived on what they earn in normal society. These people should then understand how things work for the masses and do what's best for the majority.
Currently most party heads are detached where as Mr UK ip. Is selling himself as a normal guy, for the normal brit, it's always going to work in auster times.
I pray that this makes Wallace and gromit sit up and pay attention. If not I think nigel, if he plays the right cards, has a good chance of causing general election issues!