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Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
#1460955
01/12/2013 12:11
01/12/2013 12:11
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Well as some of you may or may not know I've been having problems with my 20vt and it's never felt anywhere near as fast as it should and bogging down a lot. It has a full Stage 3 spec (Stage 3 hybrid, Pro alloy FMIC, SIP, organic clutch, 3.8bar fpr, mbc, walboro pump and wiring mod etc.) I had it dyno'd yesterday and the results were poor to say the least. It's been live mapped by a reputable tuner (Not Flea) on the forum but it only made 243.3bhp at 1.2 bar...that's 25bhp up on stock and it feels so flat to drive. The fuelling is crazy rich and when we tried to up the boost to 1.35 bar (as it should be) the fuelling went all over the place and had a mad moment where it just leaned right out then came back. The power increased a little after the weird lean-out moment but still wasn't right so we put the boost back down to 1.2. We performed a boost leak smoke test to check everything and there were no leaks to be seen which is a plus. Can anyone shed any light on this, do you think the car has a fault or the map is bad? I'm wondering whether or not to chuck a GTEC2 in there to see if it improves it? I cannot fathom what is happening with it, feels totally gutless on the road and with the spec surely it should be closer to 350bhp than 250bhp? The car's only done 34k miles and most of the parts are, at most, 6 months old. Appreciate all your help.
Last edited by MarcT; 01/12/2013 12:49.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1460956
01/12/2013 12:18
01/12/2013 12:18
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Alfa_Male
Unregistered
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Alfa_Male
Unregistered
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Speak to the tuner you took it to bud, they should be able to offer far more in-depth advice.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Rudidudi]
#1460998
01/12/2013 18:23
01/12/2013 18:23
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831 Haslemere, Surrey
Mark_S
Forum is my job
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Forum is my job
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
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Frankly, I'd drive it gently down to Bristol to see Leighton
997 C4S
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Rudidudi]
#1461039
01/12/2013 21:34
01/12/2013 21:34
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831 Haslemere, Surrey
Mark_S
Forum is my job
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Forum is my job
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
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I think Flea can deal with that stuff, but yes of course, diagnosis and fix first
997 C4S
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461053
01/12/2013 22:20
01/12/2013 22:20
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Classic signs of a maf issue assuming it was mapped right although there are various faults that can portray the same symptom. The setup will never see 350 but should be late 280-300.
Boost and power are very delayed according to the graphs and its by no means smooth.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461121
02/12/2013 11:22
02/12/2013 11:22
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Classic signs of a maf issue assuming it was mapped right although there are various faults that can portray the same symptom. The setup will never see 350 but should be late 280-300.
Boost and power are very delayed according to the graphs and its by no means smooth. Been told by more than one person including flea that the setup is more than capable of 320-340bhp when setup properly with useable power. This morning I was wondering if it was the MAF that's causing it to over-fuel. Me and flea are in discussions too. It's very annoying as the car feels so so flat!
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461123
02/12/2013 11:27
02/12/2013 11:27
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Also it does seem to have a real hard time starting too, so again, wonder if the MAF has gone bad. I can't see it on the bloody SIP.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461133
02/12/2013 12:09
02/12/2013 12:09
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DanDan
Unregistered
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DanDan
Unregistered
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Hi Marc,
I am guessing you sorted out your kangaroo boost running problems (coils/plugs?) from your previous thread in the technical area?
Dan
Last edited by DanDan; 02/12/2013 12:57. Reason: More specific :)
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461138
02/12/2013 12:47
02/12/2013 12:47
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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It wasn't the boost, it's all down to this fuelling issue.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461185
02/12/2013 16:28
02/12/2013 16:28
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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Like others have said get it down to flea mate and let him sort the issues and map properly.
320bhp-340bhp is achievable with a stage 3 depending which hybrid turbo u have
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461186
02/12/2013 16:39
02/12/2013 16:39
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Right I've just had my diagnostics gear plugged in and new information has come to light which makes sense
2 error codes found:
07 - Air flow meter (MAF) - Just as we thought 8A - Overboost strategy - Not sure what this is
So I'd say I need to get my hands on a new MAF and go from there? Best to get from FIAT or can I use a normal car parts distributor so long as I get a Bosch unit?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461205
02/12/2013 17:33
02/12/2013 17:33
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 631 Bulgaria
french_coupe
Club member 773
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Club member 773
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 631
Bulgaria
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Probably cheaper to get from a distributor or a Bosch agent. Don't buy the after market ones. I tried one and it didn't work well at all.
lost in space
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461209
02/12/2013 17:39
02/12/2013 17:39
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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What about a decent used one or is that a no-go aswell? Just seen the price of them
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461214
02/12/2013 18:04
02/12/2013 18:04
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Ring CC or JBT, they'll see you right!
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461222
02/12/2013 19:07
02/12/2013 19:07
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devbod
Unregistered
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devbod
Unregistered
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Check how old the maf error is. Its common to test it by disconnecting it to see how it runs and that gets logged as a fault. If someone has not already done that its worth trying to see what happens.
I'm no expert reading those graphs but the fuel ratio change is very sudden in the higher boost graph and coincides with maximum boost level. Given the fuel ratio is basically an O2 detector I wonder if you have a weak spark.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461224
02/12/2013 19:47
02/12/2013 19:47
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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^ good call, dodgy coil packs or in fact a dying battery....
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461252
02/12/2013 22:12
02/12/2013 22:12
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Battery is new, can't say the same for the coil packs. I'll clear the MAF error tomorrow and see if it comes straight back.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461291
03/12/2013 09:09
03/12/2013 09:09
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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You seem to have a problem other than the mapping.
Taking your car to another mapper won't solve your problem unless you find out what is causing the issues.
Some mappers are better at mapping around problems than others, so if I were you, I'd try to sort the main issues out first.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461307
03/12/2013 10:43
03/12/2013 10:43
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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As said I'm talking to Flea and trying to work out the issue. I'm sure it has something to do with the MAF or wiring but gotta take a closer look
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Blue20vt]
#1461540
04/12/2013 17:49
04/12/2013 17:49
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
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Blue20vT, what dynos did it go on?
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Blue20vt]
#1461548
04/12/2013 18:39
04/12/2013 18:39
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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Very strange that this topic has come up, I also have a fiat coupe 20vt, stage 3... Hybrid turbo. 1 bar actuator, FMIC, 3.8bar fpr, de-cat, 1.4 bar remap by flea....
This should have made 300+ BHP... The car was on 2 rolling road dyno's The highest figure it produced was 269.3 BHP and 260.1 Torque...
I still have not come across why my car is not making the 300bhp mark, as last year when it was on a dyno it made 303bhp, without the decat and was only running 1.3 bar. There can be many reasons why it didn't make the same power ånd we have been over this subject time and time again. You cant compare different dynos due to there being different types, different conditions even when you using the same dyno there will be a difference unless it's the exact same condition to the last run you did ie intake temps, tyre pressures, gearbox and engine oil temps because colder oil will sap power especially the gearbox oil etc etc I've just done a power run on a friends coupe at the heart breaker and it was down 27bhp and that was due to cold oils and odd tyre pressures which we then checked after the poor result and on the second run it was almost spot on figures to the dyno from about 3 years ago
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461580
04/12/2013 21:44
04/12/2013 21:44
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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We don't race dynos! I wanna see drag/lap times.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Trappy]
#1461596
04/12/2013 23:30
04/12/2013 23:30
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 691 uk
Blue20vt
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 691
uk
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Blue20vT, what dynos did it go on? I had a de-cat added to the car and was running 1.3 bar, i took it to AMD at lakeside and it made 259.6. BHP and 256.5 Torque.. I then took the car to flea, had the map tweaked and boost was changed to 1.4 bar, i then took the car to Redline and it made 269.3 BHP and 260.1 Torque... However the car still feels like it has made more than just 10BHP and 5 Torque... Im happy with the car though, i know its quicker than that lol
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1461637
05/12/2013 11:23
05/12/2013 11:23
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252 Windsor/ Reading
knight7660
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
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We don't race dynos! I wanna see drag/lap times. Lap times Its more interesting
Last edited by knight7660; 05/12/2013 11:23.
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife) Wine red VIS FOOFY Audi RS4 B7
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462536
09/12/2013 20:35
09/12/2013 20:35
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Ok so the story continues. I borrowed a MAF sensor from a friend's Coupe 20vt which runs perfectly and fitted it to mine but no change at all.
As you bring the car onto full load at 2800rpm it just starts juddering like mad then if you change down a gear with the revs higher it will pull but no where near like it should which is the same scenario as before. So it's still massively overfuelling for some reason.
I have noticed, tonight, that the lambda sensor looks as if it's been replaced with, possibly, a non-genuine item as the wires have been cut and rejoined under some electrical tape. (I assume this isn't right) So next bet is to change the lambda sensor with either a good used item or a brand new one.
If this doesn't solve it then I'm at a total loss as having spoken the person who mapped the car he said it was absolutely fine before so I'm starting to rule out mapping?
All help appreciated.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462541
09/12/2013 20:58
09/12/2013 20:58
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462542
09/12/2013 21:08
09/12/2013 21:08
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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I must admit I haven't but I can't see how that would make it over-fuel or am I missing something?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462573
09/12/2013 23:45
09/12/2013 23:45
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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I must admit I haven't but I can't see how that would make it over-fuel or am I missing something? If your not getting a spark then you will have excess fuel due to poor combustion. Its a simple check,and a very common fault. Start with the basics as its usually something simple.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462603
10/12/2013 10:17
10/12/2013 10:17
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Could the dump valve being leaking, AFM measure X air going in, but Y air has been bled off, thus making it rich?
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462613
10/12/2013 10:56
10/12/2013 10:56
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Well I've been speaking to Barbz and we think it may be the temp sensor or stat as my temp never gets beyond 70c. Ok it's really cold out but perhaps that could be keeping it on the cold start map?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462681
10/12/2013 17:39
10/12/2013 17:39
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Right I removed all plugs today and checked wiring to coilpacks and injectors.
Wiring all looks fine from what I can see, the plugs are all burning the same, they're all very black which indicates the over-fuelling but as said they're all identical condition.
I've got a brand new temp sensor and thermostat going on tomorrow. Any other ideas?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462692
10/12/2013 18:26
10/12/2013 18:26
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462697
10/12/2013 18:56
10/12/2013 18:56
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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I checked all the coilpacks and all plugs are burning the same hence I assumed this meant coils are fine too?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462698
10/12/2013 19:02
10/12/2013 19:02
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Jari
Unregistered
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Jari
Unregistered
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Hi,
have you measured the fuel pressure? My friend here in Finland did have similar problem, his car didn't pass our MOT due to a too high emission values.
Reason was found from Bosch fuel pressure regulator, spring wasn't able to keep fuel pressure low enough in low rpm. With vacuum hose connected, fuel pressure was almost 4 bar when engine idling.
He changed a new fuel pressure regulator and problem was solved. I would try original 3.0 bar regulator, you shouldn't need 3.8 bar regulator until you are going above 350 bhp.
-Jari-
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462699
10/12/2013 19:14
10/12/2013 19:14
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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I checked all the coilpacks and all plugs are burning the same hence I assumed this meant coils are fine too? They only fault under load Therefor by lift off there back working and any deposits are gone.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462714
10/12/2013 20:53
10/12/2013 20:53
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Ok JBT, shall I swap 2 out, drive it, see if it changes etc. Then swap another 2? (I only have 2 lol)
Jari how can I test fuel pressure?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462715
10/12/2013 20:56
10/12/2013 20:56
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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Why was the non-standard FPR fitted and was it before or after the mapping?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1462722
10/12/2013 21:18
10/12/2013 21:18
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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It had a 3.8 bar fpr fitted the same time as the stage 3 hybrid etc and then was mapped.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463769
15/12/2013 22:05
15/12/2013 22:05
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Big update! With the help of Barbz and some further investigating I discovered my temp gauge never went above 70 degrees no matter what. So with this in mind we figured the stat may have been keeping the car on the cold-start map which runs a lot richer. So a new thermostat and temp sensor was purchased and armed with my tools I set to work. Casually went to unbolt the main boost hose connecting to the throttle body only to find this... I immediately sent this photo to Barbz and we both jumped for joy. I did think to myself, hold on I had a smoke/boost leak test performed but then I remembered it was capped off after that hose so never would have shown! *Face-Palm* Fishing around in my friend's garage we found some silicone perfect for the job of replacing the pipe and fitted it snug. Seeing as I knew I still had a thermostat fault I still went and performed the thermostat removal and replacement which, overall, wasn't too bad a job, even for a novice (me lol) Then I fitted the pipework all back on and securely fastened everything and ran the car up to temp with the cap off, bled the system and replaced the cap and was delighted with my new temp gauge reading... I then took the car for a road-test and words cannot describe the difference now the car is actually generating boost pressure. My face resembled this on the first plant of the loud pedal - The Stage 3 hybrid setup is astonishing and I'd definitely say Barbz has done a spot on job of mapping it as the power is relentless and power is available from 2800rpm to 7000rpm and the boost pressure never tails (1.35 bar). The car is transformed and I'm over the moon. Barbz says with a decent EBC it may even be even faster...scary stuff. A great result finally, thanks for everyone for helping along the way!
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463775
15/12/2013 22:27
15/12/2013 22:27
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Craig1989
Unregistered
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Craig1989
Unregistered
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463777
15/12/2013 22:28
15/12/2013 22:28
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Thanks mate, very pleased, it's been bugging me since I've owned it. I love it again now!
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463811
16/12/2013 00:52
16/12/2013 00:52
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Chalky
Unregistered
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Chalky
Unregistered
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The Stage 3 hybrid setup is astonishing and I'd definitely say Barbz has done a spot on job of mapping it as the power is relentless and power is available from 2800rpm to 7000rpm and the boost pressure never tails (1.35 bar).
So is it mapped via a UNI chip then?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463874
16/12/2013 13:58
16/12/2013 13:58
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proccy
Unregistered
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proccy
Unregistered
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Jeeeeeeuz, thank fork for that!! Glad it's fixed, now enjoy it
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463896
16/12/2013 15:19
16/12/2013 15:19
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,676 Didcot - Oxon
RusH
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,676
Didcot - Oxon
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Maybe time to look at getting the rest of the boost hoses replaced.
With the age of our cars many of the hoses are becoming worn and tired.
Coupe now sold!
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Kayjey]
#1463928
16/12/2013 17:33
16/12/2013 17:33
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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I presume you will get the mapping redone? No need because when it was mapped, (6 months ago or so) the pipework was fine or Barbz would have spotted it. I'm going to go for silicone boost hoses everywhere soon as an upgrade. Poor cars are aging!
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463951
16/12/2013 19:49
16/12/2013 19:49
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Ernst
Unregistered
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Ernst
Unregistered
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Great result! I have heard a lot about Barbz and could use him for my current setup which is similar to yours. Could you provide his details please?
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463970
16/12/2013 21:53
16/12/2013 21:53
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1463995
16/12/2013 23:38
16/12/2013 23:38
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 9,729 Zele, Belgium
Kayjey
Club Member #10
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Club Member #10
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 9,729
Zele, Belgium
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I presume you will get the mapping redone? No need because when it was mapped, (6 months ago or so) the pipework was fine or Barbz would have spotted it. I'm going to go for silicone boost hoses everywhere soon as an upgrade. Poor cars are aging! Let's hope so. But I'm sure you'll check it again when next on the rollers.
- Kayjey -
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Kayjey]
#1464042
17/12/2013 10:56
17/12/2013 10:56
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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I presume you will get the mapping redone? No need because when it was mapped, (6 months ago or so) the pipework was fine or Barbz would have spotted it. I'm going to go for silicone boost hoses everywhere soon as an upgrade. Poor cars are aging! Let's hope so. But I'm sure you'll check it again when next on the rollers. Oh definitely, once I have the EBC installed I'll be having it dyno'd again and tweaked by Barbz on his return.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1464050
17/12/2013 12:37
17/12/2013 12:37
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
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Well as some of you may or may not know I've been having problems with my 20vt and it's never felt anywhere near as fast as it should and bogging down a lot. I presume you will get the mapping redone? No need because when it was mapped, (6 months ago or so) the pipework was fine or Barbz would have spotted it. I'm going to go for silicone boost hoses everywhere soon as an upgrade. Poor cars are aging! I'm sure it's not just me thinking this, but if it was fine 6 months ago, it would have gone like a stage 3 should have. Wouldn't it? You said it never felt as fast as it should and that would imply that it wasn't running properly then. If it did have a leak back then and was mapped with it, then the map will likely be out now, hence the reason (excuse ) for a dyno run to re-check the fuelling. I'd put it back on there just in case...
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1464077
17/12/2013 14:37
17/12/2013 14:37
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Craig1989
Unregistered
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Craig1989
Unregistered
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I could be wrong but im sure marc has only recently bought this.
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: ]
#1464079
17/12/2013 14:46
17/12/2013 14:46
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390 Essex
Trappy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
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I could be wrong but im sure marc has only recently bought this. If that is the case...
F****** b****** thing...
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Re: Dyno Results - Poor Performance for spec! Help
[Re: Trappy]
#1464083
17/12/2013 14:57
17/12/2013 14:57
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MarcT
Unregistered
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MarcT
Unregistered
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I could be wrong but im sure marc has only recently bought this. If that is the case... That's exactly the case lol!
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