I'm picking up a local 2005 231ps model tomorrow.

Its on 70k...

Please can anyone with 'correct' knowledge advise me,

What to visually look for
What questions need answering by the seller


Thanks in advance...

Interested to see how you get on. I believe as long as they hot start you're good.

I shall keep this thread updated,

Very nice cars on a tiny budget,

The horror stories scares most away... And the hundreds on eBay selling as spares or repairs!

See when the tips were last replaced.

No history of that being done...

you could be walk straight in to a crap storm here ive got a few friends with them and there all busted now bar one which has just had a 3.5k rebuild with peripheral porting work carried out and it hasnt made the power he has asked for.

one of my mates just sent me this link have a read if you havent already seen something like this



The RX-8 Buyers Guide.

This is a guide for the potential RX-8 buyer which will highlight some of the points that should be of concern when viewing a likely specimen of the marque which is based on my own experience in addition to information that has been collected from the Owners Club since the inception of the RX-8 in the UK in late 2003.

Firstly it cannot be over emphasized that the RX-8 needs to be maintained correctly with particular attention paid to the oil level - this is the heart blood of the engine and if the supply is not correctly monitored and replenished then longevity of the engine may be suspect with the inevitable cost that will occur, a 12 monthly interval of Mazda service history is no guarantee that oil levels have been correctly maintained by the present/previous owner and as the RX-8 is designed to use oil in comparison to a piston engine which is designed not to use oil then you see the need to be vigilant in establishing that the correct levels have been maintained throughout previous ownership before you part with your cash. See Reliability

Secondly it is now apparent that the ignition system should be in good order again this cannot be over emphasized just how important this is to the health of the Rotary engine basically the ignition system consists of 4 coil packs (these are not listed as a service item) that feed the spark plugs as a guide at approx` 30k miles the coils should be replaced as a failure of one or more coils may go unnoticed which will gradually deplete the efficiency of the engine seals and the health of the engine may suffer serious damage so it would be prudent to question the seller with reference to the age of the coils.

Spark plugs should be replaced as a service item every 37.5K miles or 3 years which ever comes first, the OE spark plug leads deteriorate with age and can cause rust to form on the spark plug caps and should be replaced ideally at the same time as the coils, Magnecor and NGK leads being recognised as superior replacements.

Just as a foot note with regard to replacement of the coils it has also become apparent that there are many cheap copies of the OE coils that have demonstrated a very short life span so it may be prudent to question the seller if the coils have been replaced and from where they were purchased, genuine OE coils command a price of £200 - £250 per set generally purchased from a reputable Rotary parts dealer, as an example of poor quality after market coils they can be purchased on eBay for as little as £50+ per set - whilst these may appear tempting at that price remember you get what you pay for.

When viewing a vehicle which is the subject of a Private Sale then a Car Data check should be considered as your first move to establish the identity and past history of the car, it is quite a cheap and easy exercise to carry out, take a note of the VIN (Vehicle Identity Number) which should be visible through the RH corner of the windscreen confirm that this tallies with the V5 registration document and then check for the cars details with your chosen data check company, prices start at a reasonable £3.95 this check is not strictly necessary if buying from a dealer as they should have made the checks that all is in order before offering the car for sale.

Check the cars Insurance record Insurance check - this is handy to know when viewing the car if it is actually insured to be on the road. (NB. the disclaimer)

Check the cars service record, the service interval is 12,500 miles or every 12 months from the date of registration use the record to establish if the car has been serviced by a Mazda (preferred) or independent dealer. (A Mazda dealer service history may be looked at more sympathetically if any future problems arise)
In addition the bodywork inspection should have been carried out and book stamped accordingly, some dealers do this FOC in with the service, some only do it if requested and then make a charge for it.
NB. RX-8`s registered before 1st July 2006 should have the usual service book complete with stamps for each service, after 1st July 2006 Digital Service Records were introduced the service book was dispensed with and service information was retained by Mazda UK but for each service a DSR printout should be given to the owner on completion of a service.

Questions to ask the seller:

1. The Oil type that has been used which should be a 5W-30 and not a full synthetic. (Be aware that the Rotary engine is designed to use oil and Mazda claim a consumption of 0.25 litre per 1000 mile but consumption will vary according to driving style)
2. Has the starter motor been replaced, a modified motor was fitted on early cars which by increasing the engine spin speed improved starting but only if the owner made a complaint if the engine seems to be sluggish when turned over then the battery may also be suspect.
3. Has all recall work been completed which can depending on model year consisting of:

Concern : POSSIBLE CRACKING OF DYNAMIC DAMPER HEAT INSULATOR
Description : The dynamic damper heat insulator, which is installed on the manual transmission, may crack, causing abnormal noise. In the worst case, the insulator may become detached.
Remedial Action : Recall the affected vehicles and replace the insulator with a modified one.
Vehicle Id : JMZSE170000100090 to JMZSE170000101030

Concern : LOSS OF STEERING MAY OCCUR
Description : It is possible that cracks may occur in the ball joint socket of the lower suspension arm. Which under certain severe driving conditions, may cause the ball to separate from the ball joint socket, and a loss of steering may occur.
Remedial Action : Recalled vehicles will be inspected to ascertain if the lower suspension arm fitted is of the affected type. If this is shown to be the case, the part will be changed for a quality assured item.
Vehicle Id : JMZSE17**00100090 to JMZSE17**00113819JMZSE17**40100089 to JMZSE17**40113821

3. The following item is not subject to a recall but may be an issue:
Rust spots can appear on one or both sills in the area where the back door meets the front door at the closure point, the problem was due to the design of the back door seal which was modified in 2006, Mazda would deal with the problem by removing the rust and repainting the area and fitting a protective film – but only if the owner had raised a complaint about the problem.

4. Special Service Campaign.
This was not a recall as such but Mazda endeavoured to contact owners with a view to replacing badly corroded pipes as fitted to the engine oil coolers which are situated in the LH/RH front bumper openings, if sufficiently corroded the pipes could fracture and spill the contents of the engine oil supply.
At the same time modified front plastic wheel arch liners were fitted to counteract the possibility of salty water spraying on to the oil cooler pipes, in addition rear wheel arches were inspected for the presence of any corrosion and dealt with accordingly the rear arches should have sealer applied to further protect the area.

Vehicle inspection:
From cold the engine should readily fire up without struggling the battery may be suspect if not, at idle the engine tends to be a bit lumpy but should be super smooth and free revving at higher throttle openings with no rattles, any sign of a rattle from the exhaust may indicate a failed catalytic converter element. (aftermarket cat` circa £300) a slight backfiring or popping noise from the exhaust is usual and perfectly normal, it should be noted that it is important that the RX-8 engine should be checked for easy starting when the engine is @ normal temperature as an engine that struggles to start once warm may be a sign that there is a major problem. For further peace of mind then see the Hot Compression Test paragraph below.

A test drive should be smooth and fairly quiet on a stock exhaust with the engine pulling cleanly to maximum revs, a rev limit warning indicator in the form of a BEEP! will sound to let you know the engine is reaching that point, the brakes should be progressive and powerful with no sign of judder under braking, the RX-8 is not commonly known for rattles but the odd car may have a few with the steering wheel and vacant passenger seat being known causes - the drivers seat can develop a creak but all of these are easily dealt with.

Check the oil level – in low temperatures the dip stick may be covered with a gooey mayonnaise type substance this is perfectly normal (it is basically emulsified oil) but it may take a couple of goes to get a true reading - get in the habit of checking the oil level when the engine is nice and hot as the build up of mayo` will be less.
Check the sump for corrosion as it is known weak point.
Check headlight levelling sensors are functioning correctly on the 230 BHP model as these are expensive to replace, the 190 BHP car has a manually adjusted system.
Check brake discs for corrosion a more caring owner will have painted them.
Check the alloy wheels around the hub centre bore for corrosion the wheels should be replaced if the car is under warranty.
Check tyres for wear and ideally they should be the same brand on all wheels the standard fitment on early cars is 225/45R18 Bridgestone REO40 and with the introduction of the RX-8 R3 225/40R19 Bridgestone REO50 were fitted - having odd tyres front to back (definitely not on the same axle) does not suit the excellent road handling that the RX-8 displays especially if some of the cheap tyres available have been fitted, tyres vary in price from £50 - £200 available in 3 categories: 1. Cheap and nasty (Generally known as Ditchfinders) 2. Budget 3. Premium - the RX-8 is a finely balanced sports coupe remember that when considering tyres.
Check for possible rust (not very common) in the area of the boot lid brake light aperture.
Check the rear lights for internal misting of the lenses again this should be dealt with by the warranty but new seals will be needed if not.
Check if fitted the optional Mazda Strakes (on front wheel arch grills) and front crest (V on front bumper) for corrosion these items were plated Aluminium and as such were susceptible to corrosion, replacement polished stainless steel items are now available.
Check the condition of the oil cooler heat exchangers (radiators) and Air Condition heat exchanger in the front bumper for damage as they can get well bashed by road debris, if protective grills have been fitted by a caring owner more the better.
Check the front suspension anti roll bar drop links as they may be broken it will not be immediately noticeable on a test drive so check – it is not dangerous and they are not expensive to replace but be aware they can break, with the engine running the electric power steering should be light to turn from lock to lock with no hard to turn points.
Check the handbrake rubber gaitor as a section of the moulded gaitor that fills the handbrake aperture when the handbrake is in the on position can break off and leave a hole under the handbrake, a new modified handbrake should have been fitted under warranty but only if the owner at the time raised a complaint.
Check for wear on the drivers leather seat side bolster stitched seam and the plastic front seat backs as they can be damaged by the seat belts.
Check for full function of the excellent BOSE Radio/CD player as it forms an integral part of the fascia and as such is expensive to replace although an aftermarket kit is now available to enable the fitment of a standard DIN radio/CD player as a cheaper or preferred option.
Be aware! When presenting an RX-8 for an MOT you should inform the tester that the cars is equipped with a LSD as it has now become apparent that some MOT stations are not aware that the car is so equipped (although that information should be available when the cars details are entered into the system) and as such the usual brake test using rollers should not be carried out as damage can occur to the differential there is an option to carry out the brake test with a decelerometer which will not damage the differential.

Hot Compression Test (added by Will66) This is an instantaneous health check on the motor and ideally should be done by any seller selling privately prior to sale, or should be agreed to by any dealer. This test should be performed using a Rotary compression tester and you should see results arranged like this:

Rotor 1
7.4 kgf/cm2
7.5 kgf/cm2
7.4 kgf/cm2

Rotor 2
7.3 kgf/cm2
7.4 kgf/cm2
7.4 kgf/cm2

RPM: 250 rpm

Compression specification is below:

Compression pressure
• Standard: 830 kPa {8.5 kgf/cm2, 120 psi} [250 rpm]
• Minimum: 680 kPa {6.9 kgf/cm2, 98.6 psi} [250 rpm]
• Difference in chambers: Within 150 kPa {1.5 kgf/cm2, 21.8 psi}
• Difference in rotors: Within 100 kPa {1.0 kgf/cm2, 14.5 psi}

If the engine cranking speed isn't 250 rpm then the figure can be corrected using the graph below and the people performing the compression test should be able to do this.

Attachment:
compression graph.jpg
compression graph.jpg [ 81.99 KiB | Viewed 11732 times ]


A compression test cannot guarantee the future life of the engine but it should show you're not buying something that has a dud engine.

Disclaimer. This guide is to assist potential owners of the RX-8. Any inaccuracies or misrepresentations are unintentional. The author or the RX8 owners club cannot be held liable or responsible for any actions or consequences that may result from reading this guide whether consequence is resultant directly or indirectly. In any doubt always consider the services of a reputable vehicle inspector, UK Mazda Dealer or reputable Rotary & RX-8 expert notwithstanding any further liability shall rest with 3rd parties and not the aforementioned disclaimed parties.

_________________

Why? If the engine is running good compression then it is not relevant.....

I have a pretty good idea who may have done that. The renesis engine does not respond well to porting..... no point in doing it really.

Chrissy, PM me your number and we can have a chat if you like, lots of rumours floating about on rotaries, and specialists who vary a lot in price and quality.

Don't want to put you off, but they're really not worth the poor mpg.

I had one, cool car to look at but no real go and 18 mpg pushing it on.

Check out EVO mag this month, there's a buyers guide to RX8's

You will probably know a lot more about them than I do, but when I looked into getting 1 before I got the coop I had seen lots about issues with tips at high mileage. If it's been maintained correctly, like with any car it's not a issue.

I am to understand that it's a expensive job and therefore something to look out for.

But as you say it's not relevant "IF" it has good compression, which is unknown as yet.

Looked at these before deciding on just getting another coupe (better the devil you know and all that!).

Seems to be a lot of horror stories and RX8's sitting with dead engines. I even saw one on ebay sold as "spares or repair" where the engine had been removed and was sitting in bits in the boot, haha.

btw my rear rotor decided it didnt like being caged and tried to free itself. Full history, all recalls, just over 40k. If your bugdet allows the R3 models are best... but with high tax to add to running costs.

I would LOVE an rx8 but don't have the budget at the minute...I mean the contingency plan budget for the 'just in case' scenarios...I think they are fantastic to drive, scalpel sharp handling and a different driving experience..

Chrissy - I'd liken the chances of a 70k RX8 being good to finding a fit woman still single at kicking out time in a club.

Hope I eat my words, but upwards of 50k and most are toast

If I was going to buy a rotary then it would have to be the rx7, it looks better, has a better engine and they have loads more potential

I took a look, with the intention of buying, I normally have a punt @ £2k, but with severe warped brakes, torn seat bolster, this wasn't for me.

I can say last night I had more paranoia than a Coupe brings....

And that's saying something!

Always fancied one after reading that checklist of what to look for ermmm no thank you.

It's a shame because there not a bad looking car it's just the engines are pants the only one's that's left out of the lads I know is the PZ version and the one with the £3k plus rebuild but both are always having loads of money spent on them just to keep them going

Wow, never heard so much pain about a model of car!
I fancied one and looked 6 years back but ended up with a e46 coupe instead. Looks like I had a lucky escape!!
A chap I worked with had the 231 hp top of the list one from New and sold it after 6 months. He lost thousands but couldn't live with 13 mpg commutes to work!

I'm very surprised that nobody has tried to claim under the sales of goods act. When any other car in the road will easily hit 100k with the correct servicing. Is the rotary fit for purpose?

Mazda have ended production of the wankel engine now.


http://jalopnik.com/5921410/the-last-mazda-wankel-engine-has-been-built

I believe so? Don't forget in Japan 6 years is the lifetime of most cars! It'll become to our shit petrol, lack of real maintaince / cost of service.

The old wankel in the rx7 is just as delicate but they are worth alot more so a 2k set of tips and 150 quid for plugs isn't so bad.

The most expensive aftermarket tips you can buy are 700 quid....

Plenty around with low compression engines for a grand. Get one of them and get the engine rebuilt by someone that knows what they are doing. Rx8's dont chip or throw tips, most of the issues are to do with carbon deposits around the tip slot meaning that they can't move freely on hot start.

Decent coils, run premix, good plugs, don't switch off when auto choke is on (start in gear with clutch down), keep an eye on oil, rev the nuts off it to keep tips from carbon ing up. Job done, and a nice car for 3-4 grand.

Fuel economy is crap around town as rotary idles at the equivalent of 3,000 rpm on a piston engine. I get 25 mpg from my rx7 doing a steady 90 Mph....but it is ported, so a bit more efficient, but that is about the same as a 3 Lr na engine. I have spent considerably less maintaining it than I ever spent on my 20vt.

The biggest issue I see with rx8's is that they are now bought as a cheap sports car and not maintained.....if you buy a dog that's been run low on oil you are in for a world of pain......sound familiar to anyone?

Yes sounds like the coupes as in buy cheap buy twice but when you put your money into a coupe you get more out of it. Power and reliability etc

You'll get more power if you go down the tuned route, and potentially more reliability on a high mileage engine. You'll never get the balance and handling, no matter how much money you throw at a coupe.

I guess it depends what you are after from a car, I still love coupes, and it's nice to see more current owners than there used to be owning one for this reason rather than because they are cheap and fast. I expect the same will happen with RX8's in several years time.

Maybe urban myth, but I heard they don't like short trips, not town cars and need USED...ie all the revs regularly..this keeps the carbon build up to a minimum...I seriously looked at these a while ago..think I posted on here for advice..the owners club was very helpful, and, as with all problem cars, there as at least as many happily running on as there are have gone pop!

High mileage cars aren't terribly unusual, and, if your car has a full MAZDA history, Mazda will contribute towards any engine work needing done...it used to be they covered the parts, not labour...this may have changed..

So? A cambelt kit is £100 quid, what's your point?
The rx is a specialist engine that needs expensive routine work to keep it going. I had a mate with an rx7 and 10 years ago it was 1500 quid when he got told he needed tips.

That's quite interesting. Do you know how labour intensive the job is/any other items like liners that need doing; or do you mostly get away with just tips?

Engine out, 2 hours (two people). Strip down, clean out any carbon from rotors, new tips, side and corner seals, seal kit for putting it all back together. 1 day. All new mazda parts cost about 800 quid if you do it yourself. A bit more if you go for unbreakable apex seals, which don't last as long, but will never throw bits of metal around the internals.

It only gets expensive when you go to a specialist who rips you off (plenty will), or a tip breaks and takes out a rotor, housing, and maybe a turbo on an rx7. Very rare on for this to happen on rx8. If a housing shows up as too worn a decent second hand one is 150 quid.

You said apex seals cost 2 grand....they don't. Servicing is just plugs and oil like any other car, far cheaper than M3 or TVR etc.

A great example of their being two sides to every coin....as I said, when it looked at them general,consensus was there are more running reliably than ever went pop...and that most repairs were necessitated by poor servicing or people just not accepting the rotary IS a petrol engine, but is a very different petrol,engine that has it's own set of service and useage requirements ....damn and blast, I'm talking myself into,looking at them again!!....for what it's worth my mate has a bog standard 230 hp version, it's on 86 k miles and hasn't missed a beat, only been owned by rotary enthusiasts from new, returns less than 15mpg round town and mid twenties on longer runs, almost regardless how he drives it...

well if your happy with 230bhp on a good day and if you ever did get it dynoed not to bothered what the result was then yes.

I hate sounding like a hater but i wouldnt buy this car just because of what problems i have seen from my mates first hand. the fact you spend more time and money on maintaining it then any other car i can think of and then when you do chuck some more at it to speed it up it gives you the square route of F all in return.

If i was ever going to buy one it would be the PZ because it pretty much comes out the factory at a very good spec and thats as far as id go id then just have to maintain it.

biggbn you said 86k and hasnt missed a beat how do you know, alot of people dont even know theres a problem with there Renesis until its to late and its the same with alot of cars even the coupes (VIS Model mostly.

There always is 2 sides to the story but the cons out weigh the pros for me id always by the 6 port 0ver the 4 ie 230hp version but id sooner by the rx7

I said tips cost 2 grand to get a garage to do, which it does.

Sorry I should have said as far as I know it hasn't missed a beat...he has had it for four years and knows the last, and only, enthusiast owner...so I guess he/we know as much as anyone that it hasn't missed a beat...and yeah, I'd be happy even with the 190 hp car, I value handling more than sheer grunt and the Mazda doesn't take a second seat to much on the back doubles...

Ok, fair enough, did not pick up that you meant that from your post. By the way - Any garage that charges 150 to change plugs is having a laugh, it's a 10 min job, and there are only four of them.

Suba, I adore the rx7! It's a classic! But... The engines, if not loved, are so dangerous!
Rx8 is living on past glory from the 7.

Agreed, rx8 is a very different beastie. I admire the concept, still has the balance and handling, but also has decent rear seats, and a lot more effort made on the interior....it's a far more 'mainstream' car. Such a shame they went NA on the engine....damned emissions laws.

Totally! I would have thought blowing the motor couldn't make emissions / fuel any worse!!
I've just looked and I never realised 2k got so much car! I can see how you could talk yourself into one! Strangely I've never seen a grey (import) one like with so many other jap performance cars.....

It's the way the ports work, on the rx7 lump the exhaust port is straight out of the housing, not on the side plates. The exhaust gas just flies straight out - which is great for gas flow into a turbo, but not for emissions. . Even on the rx7 there is an 'air pump' as standard, which believe it or not, pumps air into the exhaust after the manifold to get then emissions down.

Ironic that I pay the same road tax on the rx7 as on my wife's old KA.

It's 460 quid for an rx8, 1.3 and 460 quid. Killer!!

Never realised that the emissions were "cheated" like that!

It depends on the year, pre 2005 the tax is less than that.

Pistonheads: another one goes pop. You'd need to budget 3k on top of the purchase price IMO ready for when the engine (inevitably) lets go..

Clicky

That was a while ago...and it was bought on the cheap.

I dont see what the problem is, budget 5K for a 50:50, rear drive, with LSD car including a re-build if needed. It's still a lot of car for the money.

It's the hassle if it's your main drive / goes on the road!
It is alot of car for the money, they could also turn into a money pit. (just like the coupe!)

I've just sold my rx8 to look for a coupe!
It was a great car and needed no more maintenance than anything else. If you're buying one then a compression test is wise and if you have one premix the fuel with 2T and give it a beep once a journey (once properly warmed up).
Other than that just check the oil once a week and enjoy the superb handling. (If you can live with 14mpg round town!)

your asking for real trouble with that mileage if you ask me , however early milers can also have problems

If you need to get a rebuild you need to talk to this guy

http://www.rotaryrevs.com/content/services/engine-rebuilds/engine-rebuild-explained