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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417789
24/03/2013 21:01
24/03/2013 21:01
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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To be honest (and I'm no Vettel fan) but team orders in the second race of the season is a bit soft. It's good to see team "mates" (I'll use the term mates but I'm sure they're not anymore) racing. Mercedes should have let Nicco go past, the engineering team should pay for it's errors and suffer accordingly. Equally Webber shoul dhave been told to defend against Vettel but if he gets past well it's racing. If Webber really is as quick as Vettel then he should have chased him back down and put pressure on him in both DRS zones and smart use of kers. Webber doesn't have the consistancy and Vettel wants to be Schumacher and probably will. It was some class driving that got him past his team mate,who showed great control not to force him into a concrete wall (as I'm sure many people would have done) and a good specticle for the fans which is the most important part! As the fans make the sport. However, I do feel sorry for Mark, he'sgoing to end up with a Coulthard / Massa / Barrichello career. A massivly talented guy over shadowed by a truely brillant world class driver.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417808
24/03/2013 22:41
24/03/2013 22:41
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,833 Brisbane, Australia
Boosted7
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,833
Brisbane, Australia
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I wouldn't have had a problem if it was a fair fight between Vettel and Webber, but it wasn't. Webber was told to turn his engine down and that they would hold station to the end. Then Vettel stabbed him in the back! And Vettel was lucky to have been so close to Webber anyway at that stage of the race. Vettel was over 4 seconds behind Webber until they pitted Vettel a lap before Webber which gave him the undercut and effectively nullified Webber's lead. Fair enough they did that to cover Hamilton who had just pitted, but it destroyed Webber's advantage (and if the roles had been reversed, I doubt Webber would've been given that opportunity).
Webber was robbed today!
1998 Steel Grey 20V Turbo
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: Boosted7]
#1417827
25/03/2013 00:33
25/03/2013 00:33
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088 South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088
South Cambs
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Unfortunately F1 is a team sport. When the team chooses to slow a lead driver, to ensure that both their cars make it home, there will probably be an agreement that the other team driver will not seek to take advantage of that instruction, epecially if there is no threat to the team.
Vettel, being an employee, is subject to his employers rules and wishes. Today he chose to ignore their instructions saying he didn't understand. The team did a really good job of trying to play down what went on but it is a little damaging to their reputation. Thing is when you gift a young man with three world championships maybe you have created someone who now thinks he is bigger than the team.... Could be a case of reap what you sow Red Bull.
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417855
25/03/2013 10:23
25/03/2013 10:23
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603
Corridor of Uncertainty
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Vettel's apology was as half-arsed as it's possible to get. It was like my 14-year-old stepson apologising to his brother. Any "bollocking" he'll get from the team he'll know is for the media. I think Christian Horner was genuinely angry and frustrated at Vettel, but he is also a prodigious talent; unfortunately, he has (in my opinion) shed his initial rather engaging delight at being in such a fantastic position in life in favour of a deeply unattractive air of entitlement: towards his colleagues both within Red Bull and in F1 generally. RBR are in the sport to win and Vettel will continue to deliver Championships for as long as the car is up to the job (I'm not saying his success is only due to the genius of Newey - but it does help) and until the new wunderkind comes along to dethrone him. If the price of that success is that he chews up and spits out team-mates and rides roughshod over gentlemen's agreements, then I think they'll take it and no amount of gritted-teeth apologies should leave anyone in any doubt - he'd do it again tomorrow and the next day.
It's distasteful and disappointing (just like the entirely hateful Dr Marko's trashing of his driver in Red Bull's own in-house magazine), but Webber knows it as well as anyone. Where it may come back and bite Vettel in the bum is when he needs another favour from Webber for his own (rather than RBR's) Championship hopes. Webber will always take one for the team (until the day he leaves - which may come a bit sooner now), because he is a sportsman, as pointed out above.
On the other hand, my opinion of Lewis Hamilton (who isn't averse to a little self-important petulance) rose with his open admission that his team-mate was faster and deserved the podium place. Rosberg will still be hurting, but a fair bit less than Webber, I'd guess.
Very interesting to see how it develops.
Unlucky once again for Button - but I hope the media spares us the whole "McLaren are rubbish at pit stops" line; they have been consistently as good as (and faster than) the other teams for some time. Priceless to see Hamilton stop there!
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417856
25/03/2013 10:25
25/03/2013 10:25
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,286 West Berks
skinflint
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,286
West Berks
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There's an interesting clip here. BBC Video It looks like Webber is holding position well, and then around 1:15 in he lifts off rather than carrying on the fight. His apparent frustration at the end was with the team as well as Vettel. It seemed that he thought the team wanted Vettel to pass.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: skinflint]
#1417867
25/03/2013 10:59
25/03/2013 10:59
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603
Corridor of Uncertainty
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There's an interesting clip here. BBC Video It looks like Webber is holding position well, and then around 1:15 in he lifts off rather than carrying on the fight. His apparent frustration at the end was with the team as well as Vettel. It seemed that he thought the team wanted Vettel to pass. It wouldn't be the first time that certain sections within Red Bull had given Webber a "like it or lump it" option in favour of Vettel. His comments about protection from the team were clearly from a fair amount of pent-up anger and frustration.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417888
25/03/2013 12:02
25/03/2013 12:02
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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To be honest I'd have done the same, those points could make him world champion again at the end of the season. They also mean double since his biggest rival lost his nose!
His apologies were pretty funny TBH, "I didn't understand" I'm sure in his mind it was more like "why won't the team let me past this idiot, I am S.V. I am Redbull". I hope this puts fire in Mark's belly and makes him even more determined to beat him!
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417914
25/03/2013 14:20
25/03/2013 14:20
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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It may spoil their image BUT it gives extra news coverage and air time to images of the branded cars and Seb.
I agree it's very unsporting but he didn't actually cheat - there is nothing in teh rules about not overtaking / breaking team orders.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417922
25/03/2013 14:35
25/03/2013 14:35
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,294 Portsmouth
ali_hire
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,294
Portsmouth
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IMO, the tone of Horner's voice when he said over the radio, "this is getting silly, Seb" wasn't one of a team principle in control of his team. He might well have said, "please do what we ask Seb, and please don't be upset with us, we'll let you win the next race. Promise."
By contrast, when asked repeatedly by Nico to get Lewis to pull over, Ross Brawn issued a sharp, concise, "Negative"
Makes me wonder how much leverage Vettel really has over the team and whether he'll turn into an Alonso.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: Nigel]
#1417933
25/03/2013 15:49
25/03/2013 15:49
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proccy
Unregistered
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proccy
Unregistered
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If RB don't take action, it will simply confirm many of Mark's comments that the two drivers don't have equal standing AND that Horner's denials of inequality were lies.
I'm sure there's double-standard heirachy in most teams where its accepted there's a "lead" driver and a support - ferrari being a prime example....I feel for Webber as he seems an honourable man so at least he has that to go with his £££millions
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: ali_hire]
#1417940
25/03/2013 16:43
25/03/2013 16:43
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TimR
Unregistered
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TimR
Unregistered
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Makes me wonder how much leverage Vettel really has over the team and whether he'll turn into an Alonso.
I think it's been clear in the past that Vettel is Helmut Marko's golden boy so, in addition to the benefit of being a very good driver, he knows he's got the support of the effective top brass. I imagine the other teams will be extremely happy to see the splits appearing in Red Bull as until now they have certainly acted as a proper team but now that time may be over.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1417947
25/03/2013 17:39
25/03/2013 17:39
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,294 Portsmouth
ali_hire
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,294
Portsmouth
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... I don't anticipate much more action or criticism heading Vettel's way... Yep. My guess is that RBR will release a statement in a few days saying it's been dealt with internally and they'll just wait for it to go away.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1417950
25/03/2013 18:38
25/03/2013 18:38
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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I think webber would do well at McLaren, Button would make a very good team mate for him and I reckon his time at Redbull could help point their boat in the right direction.
Ferrari have always been a one man show with a back up driver, it's their way. I'm not sure why that is a bad thing? No one ever prevented the 2nd man from driving hard and getting second place in every race, hell if Alonso won the WDC and Massa came second everyone would know that Massa was the better driver.
As for "turning into an Alonso" - the guy was offered the money to do a role, to be the best you have to push for it, you can't let a few points get away to save someones feelings that's the sort of shit that makes you an also ran, on the world stage it's not the taking part it's the winning and proving yourself that counts.
Having spewed all that out - if Redbull want to be a team and not a Ferrari then they need to decide what to do, let Vettel walk all over them and let Mark leave or tell Sebastian straight. Lets face it, where's he going to go if he doesn't like it? The other top teams all have (except McLaren) at least one giant ego already......
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1418003
25/03/2013 22:18
25/03/2013 22:18
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Spot on Skinflint, spot on.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1418037
26/03/2013 08:42
26/03/2013 08:42
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Big_Muzzie
Unregistered
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Ah yes the 80's, a time of frivolous expendature massive engines, massive power and when boys could race! I shall sit correct and place my comment as recent history.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: Kayjey]
#1418041
26/03/2013 08:56
26/03/2013 08:56
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,072 Chertsey in the Thames
bockers
Hon Club Member 007
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Hon Club Member 007
Forum Fossil
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,072
Chertsey in the Thames
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Ferrari have always been a one man show with a back up driver, it's their way. Alesi and Berger? Alesi only won a single GP! To be fair neither consistently set the world alight, just showed flashes of brilliance which burned briefly.
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Re: The Official 2013 Malaysian F1 GP thread
[Re: barnacle]
#1418085
26/03/2013 13:38
26/03/2013 13:38
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Shifty
Unregistered
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Shifty
Unregistered
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