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Silicone hose fail
#1388676
31/10/2012 21:25
31/10/2012 21:25
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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There was a thread recently in which 'do silicone hoses fail?' yes, they do! Managed a coolant leak home. Discovered it was the coolant hose from block to turbo, the block end that was leaking. When I removed the hose it ripped off. I managed to cut down enough to reattach but a make do only and not happy running the car with this hose. When I was replacing this with a standard rubber hose the end attached to the turbo basically broke off! If you bend the remaning hose you can hear the crispiness of it. This was from about two years ago DavidL group buy. Just thought I would warn you. (although the red key ecu went unoticed even when added into the thread. I am that myth!)
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388685
31/10/2012 21:39
31/10/2012 21:39
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Pondman
Unregistered
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Pondman
Unregistered
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You were lucky it happened close to home! Good heads up post, well done
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388702
31/10/2012 22:24
31/10/2012 22:24
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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Can't remember off hand when but maybe two years. No more than 10k and I drive like Miss Daisey. I think it has been in the state of fatigue for a couple of months if I recall certain events. But was pretty much a shock it just tore off. Thought it was a pretty much one time buy hose. Bad silicone I guess.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388705
31/10/2012 22:34
31/10/2012 22:34
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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Yes, but the remaining of my coolant hoses pretty much are from the same buy, so making me think?
Although. the other hoses 'appear' to be ok, maybe the heat from the turbo has been the contributing factor to this?
Last edited by dlongstaff; 31/10/2012 22:38. Reason: added from: Although
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388710
31/10/2012 22:50
31/10/2012 22:50
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proccy
Unregistered
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proccy
Unregistered
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Hmmm i was in on that group buy, think JBT better inspect mine soon - glad it turned out ok D
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388712
31/10/2012 22:53
31/10/2012 22:53
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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It looks like they have been overtightened on the clips for them to fracture in such a way. Again I could be wrong as its difficult to tell from the pictures. What is evident though is the presence of oil Around the pipe.
A direct heat source and oil contamination from your rocker cover may have also contributed. But There's clearly oil on the pipe.The same oil that causes the original pipes to swell and then burst.
I had my rail pipe split from the same gb but it was down to heat. My under bonnet temps are much higher than the 2.0. I replaced the entire kit with one of my own kits and after spa noticed discolouration to the same pipe. Since then I have replaced it again and heat wrapped it.
I don't think a mass panic should be put in place yet but oil will cause issues around silicone.
Unfortunately the original hoses are no longer available so silicone remains the only option and a preferred upgrade .
And on the whole a very reliable one.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388717
31/10/2012 23:09
31/10/2012 23:09
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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I hear what you say about oil and over tightening. If you look at this slightly out of focus pic would you still say that from where it broke? And also are silicone hose not prone from the same oil contamination fatigue as the ones you sell ? from what you suggesting so, what other than colour is the point of silicone. Obviously an oil free clean engine is a good start.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388720
31/10/2012 23:20
31/10/2012 23:20
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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No it looks like its fractured after the clip. Also those clips are junk and over tightening is near impossible.
Did you fit the hose? If so was it stretched(hose too small) or was it too big meaning its naturally trying to twist?
Again there's no alternative to silicone now,it has its pro's and con's just like any other aftermarket addition.
Owners want a cheap direct replacement which is what was offered by David.
I would say half the cars I now deal with have these replacements and I have sold them all around the world with no negative feedback.
A failure at some point is inevitable. My point to this is I was replacing stock hoses on 1 year old coupes under warranty due to failing so its always been a problem in standard form.
It's important that these hoses are installed,monitoring the original hose shape and length. Otherwise fatigue may interfere.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388729
31/10/2012 23:35
31/10/2012 23:35
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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I fitted the hose and it seemed a decent fit. I did fit the oversized jubilee clip at the time to replace later, which I never did. This is one hose you don't tend to remove when working on the car as I have done and removed others and refitted many times without issue. Also, I have spent a small fortune on decent t bolts and clips. This hose has only once been removed turbo end since fitting originally.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388734
31/10/2012 23:37
31/10/2012 23:37
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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And did it collapse when you removed it?
Maybe the poor clips were allowing water to leak past the pipe which crusted up. In turn removal would mean having to pull the hose with some force to remove. When you removed it last time did it come off easily?
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388739
31/10/2012 23:44
31/10/2012 23:44
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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When I removed/pulled the block end off/down it 'snapped' at the turbo end as in the pic. Hence my surprise.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388743
31/10/2012 23:49
31/10/2012 23:49
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Removal of these pipes requires a delicate hand. The rubber hoses are 3 ply reinforced therefor maintain a rigid form. The silicone pipes are much more malleable therefor its possible to stretch the silicone much easier than rubber. The silicone will stretch fine but the internal ply will fracture.
It maybe was damaged the first time it was removed. Or just a bad batch wih poor banding.
Either way its a concern.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388762
01/11/2012 07:36
01/11/2012 07:36
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Was this all the same group buy?
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388764
01/11/2012 09:13
01/11/2012 09:13
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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NikAzwaa, that's not good news. If you look at the pic you can see the angle the top part split at. This is where my leak was coming from. There was a small jet of coolant escaping not just a weep. When I removed the hose the triangle part on the left of pic remained on the outlet. It was not solidly stuck, it was that the silicone was brittle and snapped. I dont think overtightening is the issue. The part on the right was the piece I cut off so I could reattach the hose.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: Kelv27]
#1388912
02/11/2012 01:12
02/11/2012 01:12
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088 South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088
South Cambs
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A few years ago I saw an article in my mates "Fast Ford" magazine on Samco hoses. They reccomend that all high temperature hoses should be manuactured using nomex fibres and nomex backings. There was also something about red oxides being available for the really high temperature hoses. If I can find this magazine I'll try to take a scan of the page and post it up. The one thing that srtuck me in the article was that Silicoln hose manufacture appeared far more complex than I had thought. It was clearly not just a case of getting some pattern items made up but required getting the correct type of silicoln, weave and wraping materials for each hoses location and use. There has been quite a large debate regarding the use of silicoln hoses on "Street" cars too. Many reports tend to suggest that if you can't afford to go with Samco, or equivelant big name manufacturers, who have considerable reputations and research teams then you should really stick with OEM hoses where possible. Many of the cheaper hoses tend to be manufactured using poorer grade silicoln and weave materials resulting in a significantly lower fluid fastness, heat durabiliry and heat cycle tollerance. Samco hoses... The DavidL group started by casting doubt on another group buy as he was suggesting that the Viper performance hoses were being manufactured and imported from Taiwan, the same supplier David was using. If I remember correctly this Viper performance GB Davidl was alluding to was the GB being offered by Roger. I didn't realise that anyone had actually purchased hoses from David in the end but it would seem the cheaper hoses supplied from Taiwan were not up to the job! Viper performance hoses were offered on the forum by Rudidudi. That group buy seemed to go well with the hoses again being referred to as UK made and coming with the three year warranty, something that may have been useful in this case If people are going to go with silicon hoses I suggest it pays to know who is making them, what materials they are using and that they are covered by a warranty, the longer the better. I personally would chose to pay that bit more and stick with the quality products from the bigger suppliers with good reputations.
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388935
02/11/2012 08:59
02/11/2012 08:59
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057 Southsea
Gunzi
Club member 189, Former Club President
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Club member 189, Former Club President
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
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For clarity the *5th* group buy offered by DavidL was started Nov 2010, the first by Rudi was in Mar 2011. These two threads are still in the group buy section.
Given that there were 5 rounds of these hoses made there could be a significant variance in quality and a good quantity of Coupes running them.
DLongstaff do you remember when you bought these? Could mods or admin have a look through the GB section and dig out the old threads? If more failures turn up it could be advisable to issue a warning to owners with the hoses.
I agree on quality but when I wanted a turbo water hose I could only buy one from DavidL.
Last edited by Gunzi; 02/11/2012 09:02.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388939
02/11/2012 09:12
02/11/2012 09:12
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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Interesting article Barmybob. Agree with the quality/money thing but I trusted these hose were ok as it was the fourth? group buy. Gunzi I will check to make sure.
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388941
02/11/2012 09:19
02/11/2012 09:19
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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dlongstaff
Unregistered
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I paid for them on 30/09/10
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: Barmybob]
#1388967
02/11/2012 11:09
02/11/2012 11:09
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,676 Didcot - Oxon
RusH
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,676
Didcot - Oxon
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I didn't realise that anyone had actually purchased hoses from David in the end but it would seem the cheaper hoses supplied from Taiwan were not up to the job!
From Memory the pricing offered through the original DavidL hoses compared to that of the follow on group buys was of a similar level. His kit also contained fewer hoses (8 in total) on the original group buy. I'm not sure it was perceived as a cheap option for replacement at the time. I have these on my car and the only reason I changed my OE ones was on the basis of a precautionary reasons (CHOD Kill Die Etc)- certainly not as a cost cutting exercise. At the time this was the only option available for after market water hoses unless you went down the Nobby/Samco/DIY route. Im not aware of anyone at the time mentioning that they were a 'cheap' replacement route. Valid that the manufacturing process/warranty should have been explored in further depth, but It does frustrate me that when ever a non OE part/modification part is used and fails, its automatically assumed that one of the reasons was that it was cheap and people were trying to cut corners/reduce costs. I guess it's just a case of reviewing them and keeping them nourished with hose cleaner/treatment.
Last edited by RusH; 02/11/2012 11:16.
Coupe now sold!
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: magooagain]
#1388968
02/11/2012 11:13
02/11/2012 11:13
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088 South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088
South Cambs
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Rudi's group buy was supplying hoses made by Viper in the UK was it not? I would have thought that these fellows would have manufactured the hoses for the different areas of the engine from the materials most suitable for application. They also provided the three year warranty with that GB too. If there are any issues with those hoses supplied by Viper back then all the buyers should expect to see this resolved? As far as I can tell the hose that has failed causing this thread was not from this group buy though. It seems to have been supplied by a manufacturer overses, with an assurance from Davidl that they were of the same quality as the Viper hoses. He actually went further and suggested that Viper were using the same supplier that he was and that the hoses were exactly the same!
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: ]
#1388971
02/11/2012 11:19
02/11/2012 11:19
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,676 Didcot - Oxon
RusH
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,676
Didcot - Oxon
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DavidL's hoses were imprinted with 'Booster Sport' on them.
Coupe now sold!
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Re: Silicone hose fail
[Re: RusH]
#1388984
02/11/2012 12:08
02/11/2012 12:08
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088 South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,088
South Cambs
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It does frustrate me that when ever a non OE part/modification part is used and fails, its automatically assumed that one of the reasons was that it was cheap and people were trying to cut corners/reduce costs. Russ, I was not intending to suggest that anyone buying the hoses were cutting corners. I would actually suggest that everyone bought these hoses in good faith. There were assurances that the quality was the same as those being supplied by Roger & Viper, to the extent it was even suggested they were exactly the same hoses! I would suggest that David undermined Roger's Viper group buy. But he was not the last person to do this. The last time a Viper group buy was arranged via this forum someone else hijacked the thread and offered and supplied hoses from another unknown source! This is not to suggest the hoses supplied are not of a sufficient quality, it's just that nobody who bought those hoses has any idea who made them. My concern is more that sometimes we take at face value claims being made by people oganising group buys. We fail to follow up with proper checking and fail to ask all the questions we would if we were obtaining things ourselves. I am also aware that some people organising group buys feel that they need to benefit from putting in the effort. To that end the group buy, whilst offering a small discount to the participants, often results in the organiser getting their items for considerably less, even FREE!
Gone Audi mad!
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