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Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435385
28/06/2013 07:32
28/06/2013 07:32

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Originally Posted By: Biggenz
I wonder if it was done in the name of Allah.

Because that would make it ok.


On this occassion I reckon it was done in the name of affording to run a car with a value greater than that of the house they lived in.

If I had (a) daughter(s) I would be bricking my pants everytime they left the house / went near the internet.

It would also appear that most of the rest of normal muslim society is bricking it's pants at the thought of more crys of payback.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435386
28/06/2013 07:36
28/06/2013 07:36

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Originally Posted By: Big_Muzzie
On this occassion I reckon it was done in the name of affording to run a car with a value greater than that of the house they lived in.

If I had (a) daughter(s) I would be bricking my pants everytime they left the house / went near the internet.

It would also appear that most of the rest of normal muslim society is bricking it's pants at the thought of more crys of payback.


Dead right. It's always the few that messes it up for the rest. Most of the Muslims I've ever met are peace loving people, and they actually have values and pass this onto their children, which is something you don't see that often in this country.

But as good as these people are, as bad are the bad apples.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435387
28/06/2013 07:38
28/06/2013 07:38
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Firstly, what makes you think these people are "extremist Muslims"? The men that carried out these offences are motivated by sexual gratification and financial gain, there is no religious component to it whatsoever. The fact that they belong to a community that happens to be Muslim doesn't give the crimes a religious angle.
I could be wrong, but I'm not associating Jimmy Savile and his mates with Christian extremism. Did Gary Glitter act in the name of God? I don't think so. Peter Sutcliffe thought he was, but we tend to think he was nuts, not that his religion was responsible.
My point to you is that it might be better to avoid making pronouncements about something you know little about. My stepkids are half South African, but - in the same way as having Muslim best friends - this doesn't make me an expert on why it's OK for white people to systematically murder and opress black people.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1435388
28/06/2013 07:53
28/06/2013 07:53

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Originally Posted By: Jim_Clennell
this doesn't make me an expert on why it's OK for white people to systematically murder and opress black people.


I suggest you learn some history for your childrens' sake.

If you do a little reading, you'll find that the white people of SA never systematically murdered anyone, let alone black people. The Apartheid government did MORE for the blacks in SA than the ANC EVER DID and ever will do. They built them schools, hospitals, gave them their own homelands where they could farm, and sponsored the black owned companies in their communities. Don't believe me? Go and do some research.

What IS true is that the blacks are systematically murdering the minority white population at an alarming rate. This is not something I'm making up. The statistics are there to back it up and you don't have to look very far to see the evidence of that.

Two days ago, the PRESIDENT of SA sang the same song again, "Kill the Boer", in public that was BANNED by the supreme court previously. And yet the world is turning a blind eye, because you can only stand up for yourself if you're a non white. Otherwise you're just a racist.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435390
28/06/2013 07:57
28/06/2013 07:57
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Originally Posted By: Biggenz
Originally Posted By: Jim_Clennell
this doesn't make me an expert on why it's OK for white people to systematically murder and opress black people.


I suggest you learn some history for your childrens' sake.

If you do a little reading, you'll find that the white people of SA never systematically murdered anyone, let alone black people. The Apartheid government did MORE for the blacks in SA than the ANC EVER DID and ever will do. They built them schools, hospitals, gave them their own homelands where they could farm, and sponsored the black owned companies in their communities. Don't believe me? Go and do some research.

What IS true is that the blacks are systematically murdering the minority white population at an alarming rate. This is not something I'm making up. The statistics are there to back it up and you don't have to look very far to see the evidence of that.

Two days ago, the PRESIDENT of SA sang the same song again, "Kill the Boer", in public that was BANNED by the supreme court previously. And yet the world is turning a blind eye, because you can only stand up for yourself if you're a non white. Otherwise you're just a racist.


See how annoying it is...?

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435391
28/06/2013 07:58
28/06/2013 07:58
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Originally Posted By: Biggenz
Or what is their justification? Please do tell.

Sex and money at a guess, the most basic of urges as usual cause the most harm.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1435393
28/06/2013 08:00
28/06/2013 08:00

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Originally Posted By: Jim_Clennell
See how annoying it is...?


Can you even read?

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435394
28/06/2013 08:03
28/06/2013 08:03
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Originally Posted By: Biggenz
If you do a little reading, you'll find that the white people of SA never systematically murdered anyone, let alone black people.


Well quite - after all, if you're a farmer with a valuable plough-horse you don't shoot it, do you?


Dear monos, a secret truth.
Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435395
28/06/2013 08:04
28/06/2013 08:04
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Originally Posted By: Biggenz
Originally Posted By: Jim_Clennell
See how annoying it is...?


Can you even read?


Damn, you're too good at this!

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435396
28/06/2013 08:06
28/06/2013 08:06

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Originally Posted By: Biggenz
Originally Posted By: Jim_Clennell
See how annoying it is...?


Can you even read?


I think Jim's very cleverly made point may have gone over your head there Biggenz!!

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435401
28/06/2013 08:27
28/06/2013 08:27
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Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435433
28/06/2013 11:42
28/06/2013 11:42

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Biggenz
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Originally Posted By: Turbo_Verde
I think Jim's very cleverly made point may have gone over your head there Biggenz!!


I'm glad you find it amusing. I bet you wouldn't find it funny if one of your family members was affected by this.

I've just returned from my sister's funeral in SA where she was killed by two of these vermin, so I'm sorry if I don't see the funny side.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435436
28/06/2013 11:56
28/06/2013 11:56

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sorry to hear that.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435441
28/06/2013 12:13
28/06/2013 12:13

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I am also very sorry to hear this Biggenz, and at no point have ever said or found the murder of humans funny.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435443
28/06/2013 12:35
28/06/2013 12:35
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Originally Posted By: Biggenz
I've just returned from my sister's funeral in SA where she was killed by two of these vermin, so I'm sorry if I don't see the funny side.


Is there meant to be a funny side to this? Can't say I've found any of your posts so far amusing.

However, there are three separate issues here:

1. You're supporting the Apartheid government.

I'm happy to admit that the government didn't kill many blacks, but they did treat them like cattle, and yet you're lauding them for things such as "giving" the blacks land to farm.

Providing the things that a government should be providing (schools, hospitals, etc.) doesn't excuse brutality in the same way that I can't say that me buying my wife a fur coat and a Mercedes makes it OK for me to knock her around a bit, because she's a woman and needs to know her place.

2. You're still taking a racist stance

I doubt anybody is going to say that the farm murders aren't happening, but it's less clear whether they're organised and targeted against whites.

While there are a few web-sites that have clearly decided that this is genocide against whites there are also figures that suggest the proportion of whites attacked is pretty much in line with the proportion of property that is white-owned.

There's no evidence that the government is doing much to stop the murders, but there's also no evidence that they're actively involved in making them happen either.

And, anyway, it's not all blacks against all whites, is it, but when you use phrases like "these vermin" it sounds an awful lot like, "All black people are vermin".

3. None of this in any way relates your bizarre claim that it's Muslim extremists who are involved in child grooming, which is what you got called out on in the first place.

I am genuinely sorry to hear about your sister, though.


Dear monos, a secret truth.
Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435449
28/06/2013 13:56
28/06/2013 13:56

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Sadly this crime could well be funding extremists without the perps actually having totally jihadist views. Extremists also view women to have no rights and be second class. This part seems to have been fulfilled. It's a fine line.

It is however also probable that they are just depraved, un educated bastards that have no respect for anyone and in their tiny minds enjoy the power trip and making money.

It makes me sick and very angry.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435451
28/06/2013 14:08
28/06/2013 14:08
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Originally Posted By: Big_Muzzie
Sadly this crime could well be funding extremists


Except, so far as I can see, there's no evidence that this is happening and nobody even seems to be suggesting that it is.


Dear monos, a secret truth.
Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435457
28/06/2013 15:30
28/06/2013 15:30

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Big_Muzzie
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Sorry of course criminals don't use one type of act to fund another, they pay money into the bank and have a detailed audit trail of where all cash goes. We can all pick holes in anyone's thoughts, I merely used what I said as an example of how things can quite easily happen. £100,000's get laundered back to (this is only an example, I'm not picking one one specific country) Pakistan every day, a local travel agent was done for sending insurance fraud money back that went well into 6 figures only a year ago, these frauds had been happening for 8 years but no one worked it out....

You also quoted me out of context as I put both sides in my post, are you a journalist by any chance? laugh

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435463
28/06/2013 16:19
28/06/2013 16:19
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What I'm asking is why you're raising the *possibility* that they could be funding Islamic extremists when there's nothing to suggest that this is the case?

I'm sure they didn't file their business accounts for their sex ring every year, but it doesn't then follow that they're raising money for extremist causes.

If it was an Irish paedophile ring you wouldn't automatically assume that they were funding the IRA, would you?


Dear monos, a secret truth.
Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435468
28/06/2013 16:50
28/06/2013 16:50
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Come on Andrew, what sort of criminals do you think they are? Aren't all felons deep inside just looking for the chance to give their loot away to those someone else*?


*Particularly someone whose ideology means they would want said criminal to be maimed for their actions.


Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing? (John 7:51)
Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435475
28/06/2013 17:43
28/06/2013 17:43

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Like I said Andrew I made BOTH sides of the case, your comment doesn't have any meaning. It's all in the context, I'm sure I could find many quotes on here and totally twist them by changing the context.

Yeah, I guess gangs don't work together for a common cause and have low end criminals selling drugs, exploting people even selling off dodgy merchandise to fund other more lucrative lines of business.

And OT, local news has just reported its mainly Pakistani men selecting white girls and south Asian girls that dress in a western way. Their motive / reasoning? They deserve it because of the way they dress, they are promiscuous and therefore deserve it.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: AndrewR] #1435478
28/06/2013 17:59
28/06/2013 17:59

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Biggenz
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Originally Posted By: AndrewR
Is there meant to be a funny side to this? Can't say I've found any of your posts so far amusing.

However, there are three separate issues here:

1. You're supporting the Apartheid government.

I'm happy to admit that the government didn't kill many blacks, but they did treat them like cattle, and yet you're lauding them for things such as "giving" the blacks land to farm.

Providing the things that a government should be providing (schools, hospitals, etc.) doesn't excuse brutality in the same way that I can't say that me buying my wife a fur coat and a Mercedes makes it OK for me to knock her around a bit, because she's a woman and needs to know her place.

2. You're still taking a racist stance

I doubt anybody is going to say that the farm murders aren't happening, but it's less clear whether they're organised and targeted against whites.

While there are a few web-sites that have clearly decided that this is genocide against whites there are also figures that suggest the proportion of whites attacked is pretty much in line with the proportion of property that is white-owned.

There's no evidence that the government is doing much to stop the murders, but there's also no evidence that they're actively involved in making them happen either.

And, anyway, it's not all blacks against all whites, is it, but when you use phrases like "these vermin" it sounds an awful lot like, "All black people are vermin".

3. None of this in any way relates your bizarre claim that it's Muslim extremists who are involved in child grooming, which is what you got called out on in the first place.

I am genuinely sorry to hear about your sister, though.


You need to watch what you say to who. And you make too many assumptions.

Call me a racist again and I'll show you how little you really like South Africans.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435487
28/06/2013 18:36
28/06/2013 18:36
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Was that a real life threat??




Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: ] #1435490
28/06/2013 19:01
28/06/2013 19:01
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Originally Posted By: Biggenz


You need to watch what you say to who. And you make too many assumptions.

Call me a racist again and I'll show you how little you really like South Africans.


Mmm, nice, violence always helps rolleyes You must be great fun to have a beer with punch

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435496
28/06/2013 19:11
28/06/2013 19:11

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If I was greaving and then bated on a subject that was both a topic I knew alot about and was the cause of the loss then I can honestly say I'd give a similar response. We're supposed to be a community, we can disagree and debate but please don't carry on trying to get biggy to bite after he's explained how close he is to the subject and how it's directly changed his life forever.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435499
28/06/2013 19:16
28/06/2013 19:16
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We all experience loss but that does not excuse threats of violence.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435505
28/06/2013 19:27
28/06/2013 19:27

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That's true, and accepting that when you are pushed at certain points in your life you react differently and irrationally. I'm not excusing or condoning but giving some explanation for the post.

And to save Andrew posting to contradict or pick up on me:

The other side is I don't personally know biggy so he could be a hot head and get angry easily and therefore make threats on a regular basis.

As always if you had a sibling murdered and then someone took the side of the murderers on two desperate posts I'm sure you'd be quite irrational too.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435521
28/06/2013 20:02
28/06/2013 20:02
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Agree, and the best advise to Bigenz is to step away from the internet and spend time with his family, grief affects in all sorts of ways and it's only when you start to come out the other side you see how.
It is not a case of taking sides it is just seeing things from all perspectives, an that is nigh on impossible if you are emotionally affected by events as your views have that emotional charge.


Last edited by bockers; 28/06/2013 20:58.
Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1435522
28/06/2013 20:07
28/06/2013 20:07
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Biggenz, I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your sister - not knowing any of the circumstances, I can only imagine how appalling it must be.

I wasn't trying to make fun of you in my original comment, I was trying to point out that in a recent post, you were angry at people who made comments you disagreed with about South Africa - a subject about which you clearly have deeply held and passionate views, and - incidentally, a debate that you began in quite a provocative way. You then went on to make comments that to my mind demonstrated a corresponding lack of insight about the relevance of Islam in the case in yesterday's news. I was hoping that you might see the parallel and realise why it might upset others. I'm sorry if my aim was not achieved.
This thread is not really about South Africa, so here might not be the place, but I'm sure you recognise that others legitimately hold views that differ from yours and they are entitled to those views, irrespective of your tragic loss. My stepkids and their dad are proud of their (white) South African heritage and they all view Mandela's role in the country's extremely difficult struggle to find a fair equilibrium as noble. Any society facing the task that South Africa does will sometimes be found wanting and injustice will leave scars on both sides.
I wish you well in dealing with your loss, and I hope you will find the serenity not to resort to threats against others.

Re: Whats wrong with society ? [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1435526
28/06/2013 20:34
28/06/2013 20:34
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Back to the original point of this post, to just take a time out and consider Mandela's image today with his past activities. It did make me stop and think. I admire him sticking to his cause for all of that time in jail, for steering SA to what is a relatively peaceful outcome, for being a superb statesman etc. Despite his terrorist beginnings he has been crucial to a lasting peace, like the those in N.Ireland, his change in stance has been critical.

So a real dichotomy of emotions, he was bad, now he is super good, how do I judge him? I think I have to go by the end game, it is how you finish things, once you have years on the clock and the wisdom that comes from this.

Is SA a good place to live for whites (and blacks)? Well no, but still better than Nigeria and Zimbabwe, but where will it end up? That is down to today's leaders; Mandela and other gave them the platform to step up, or fall off.


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