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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307663
18/01/2012 16:03
18/01/2012 16:03
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,568 Northampton England
Sedicivalvole
Club member 2092
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Club member 2092
Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,568
Northampton England
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Depends what is written in to it really.
Vinci Grey LE Alfa 147 GTA 3.2 V6 BMW E92 M3 4.0 V8 Fiat Tipo Sedicivalvole 2.0 16v ABS
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: Sedicivalvole]
#1307696
18/01/2012 17:28
18/01/2012 17:28
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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Depends what is written in to it really. Absolutely. How about, rule 1 - if you arrive in the UK with a forged passport, then claim asylum, and then after the UK is kind enough to offer you and your family safe haven, plus a free house, hundreds of thousands of pounds in benefits, you spend every available opportunity encouraging Muslims to embrace jihad and kill innocent civilians - you are immediately executed by firing squad.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307703
18/01/2012 17:53
18/01/2012 17:53
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731 Surrey
Emjay
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,731
Surrey
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If you come to the UK to escape torture and are lawfully granted asylum, allegations against you that will lead to your execution should be accepted at face value without any need for you to be charged, put on trial or have the chance to put the case against your execution.
You have thought this through and rationally concluded this would be your Elyssian state?
Does our law condemn a man without first hearing him to find out what he has been doing? (John 7:51)
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: Emjay]
#1307752
18/01/2012 19:40
18/01/2012 19:40
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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If you come to the UK to escape torture and are lawfully granted asylum, allegations against you that will lead to your execution should be accepted at face value without any need for you to be charged, put on trial or have the chance to put the case against your execution. Firstly, if you come to the UK on a forged passport, you should be immediately deported to your country of origin. Any asylum claim should be dismissed following the the crime committed above. In the case where an individual is claiming asylum to avoid torture in their country if origin for terrorist criminality, the plane deporting them should only be told to fly faster. If in his case, asylum has been granted, the very second he is found to be encouraging others to commit terrorist acts against the citizens of the very same country that has granted him asylum, he should be convicted of treason and then executed. Treason being the only crime you can still be executed for in this country.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307764
18/01/2012 20:05
18/01/2012 20:05
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tim42
Unregistered
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tim42
Unregistered
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I am all for the UK being a safe haven for people who are in fear of their lives in another country. However if these people then commit crime or berate/ignore the laws/morals of this country, they should be sent back PRONTO. I am totally in favour of the old adage "When in Rome". Feel free to follow any religion or belief you wish, but do not even dream of trying to change the fabric of the society that you are trying to integrate into.
Integration is the key, not radicalisation.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307769
18/01/2012 20:09
18/01/2012 20:09
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 611 Aberdeenshire,Scotland
Azzura
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 611
Aberdeenshire,Scotland
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Treason being the only crime you can still be executed for in this country. Except that it's not. There are no offences for which the death penalty exists in this country.
Yesterday Sprint Blue 20VT,today Denim Blue TT225
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307775
18/01/2012 20:18
18/01/2012 20:18
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568 Berlin
barnacle
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
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First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak out because I was Protestant.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
For some reason I take an opposite view from Shiny and Doug and their cohort - might be something to do with the fact that my wife's mother is one of three of her family who survived world war two. They survived because - and only because - they were able to leave on the Kindertransport trains in the thirties; the remainder of the family are ashes in the mass graves in Dachau and Auschwitz. So, no. I don't like it when people jump on kick 'em out or kill 'em on sight policies... if the person has committed crimes in this country then let the evidence be considered in court and appropriate sentence passed. But the essence of civilisation is that the same rules apply to *all*. As Beatrice Hall said: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. While the UK is signatory to the appropriate treaties, it *cannot* return a person to a country where he is expected to be tortured or where evidence acquired by torture will be used in his trial. You may now label me a bleeding heart liberal. I will relish the title.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: Azzura]
#1307776
18/01/2012 20:20
18/01/2012 20:20
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tim42
Unregistered
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tim42
Unregistered
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Treason being the only crime you can still be executed for in this country. Except that it's not. There are no offences for which the death penalty exists in this country. Correct. Until 1814 treason was punishable by hanging, but before death the bowels were removed and burnt in front of the miscreant, then beheading then quartering. Ouch . After this date simple hanging was felt to be sufficient. This punishment for treason was only replaced in 1998 for life imprisonment. Don Revie was very fortunate not to be hanged
Last edited by tim42; 18/01/2012 20:21. Reason: Spellin' as usaul
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307779
18/01/2012 20:27
18/01/2012 20:27
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 611 Aberdeenshire,Scotland
Azzura
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 611
Aberdeenshire,Scotland
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Absolutely. How about, rule 1 - if you arrive in the UK with a forged passport, then claim asylum, and then after the UK is kind enough to offer you and your family safe haven, plus a free house, hundreds of thousands of pounds in benefits, you spend every available opportunity encouraging Muslims to embrace jihad and kill innocent civilians - you are immediately executed by firing squad. My father ( 3 years old in 1939 ) and his sister were the only members of his extended family to survive the Second World War. Everyone else was arrested and imprisoned without trial simply because of their nationality or national origins, then after many months of being kept in high security prison under harsh conditions they were herded onto a ship where they were forced into the hold under armed guard with all means of escape covered in barbed wire and when the ship was torpedoed they all died. All of this was done by the British Government acting under the type of ignorant hysteria displayed above.
Yesterday Sprint Blue 20VT,today Denim Blue TT225
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307782
18/01/2012 20:33
18/01/2012 20:33
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603
Corridor of Uncertainty
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Firstly, if you come to the UK on a forged passport, you should be immediately deported to your country of origin.
Any asylum claim should be dismissed following the the crime committed above.
I can't believe I'm even bothering with this, but my cat is busy with more sophisticated arguments... If you were wishing to escape from country A and hoping to claim asylum in country B (or C or D or ...), there is a reasonable chance that the Country A authorities might - far from issuing you with a valid passport and a cheery wave - beat you with rubber hoses and, you know, kill you. In order to avoid torture and death you might be tempted to seek another source of documentation, otherwise known as a forgery. Imagine how you might laugh at the Kafka-esque situation of being deported by the just and fair-minded people of safe-haven B (haven in the sense of sanctuary and safety, not the perverted use it has been reduced to) for not having a passport that you have no way of obtaining, back to a country that wants to kill you. I'd say that was a tad harsh for using a fake document to save your life. You'd surely be chuckling all through the in-flight movie, though probably less so once you landed.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307784
18/01/2012 20:36
18/01/2012 20:36
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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After this date simple hanging was felt to be sufficient. This punishment for treason was only replaced in 1998 for life imprisonment. I stand corrected, I thought it was still a possibility. Still, we are broke, so we can't really afford to house another prisoner for a life sentence, so a single bullet will suffice.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307787
18/01/2012 20:44
18/01/2012 20:44
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tim42
Unregistered
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tim42
Unregistered
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After this date simple hanging was felt to be sufficient. This punishment for treason was only replaced in 1998 for life imprisonment. I stand corrected, I thought it was still a possibility. Still, we are broke, so we can't really afford to house another prisoner for a life sentence, so a single bullet will suffice. 1813 might still be entertaining; better than Big Brother
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1307816
18/01/2012 21:18
18/01/2012 21:18
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546 Northumberland
AndrewR
I AM a Coop
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I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,546
Northumberland
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Firstly, if you come to the UK on a forged passport, you should be immediately deported to your country of origin.
Any asylum claim should be dismissed following the the crime committed above.
I can't believe I'm even bothering with this, but my cat is busy with more sophisticated arguments... If you were wishing to escape from country A and hoping to claim asylum in country B (or C or D or ...), there is a reasonable chance that the Country A authorities might - far from issuing you with a valid passport and a cheery wave - beat you with rubber hoses and, you know, kill you. In order to avoid torture and death you might be tempted to seek another source of documentation, otherwise known as a forgery. I'm sure Brewster (and others) would be keen to have it both ways - if you seek asylum with a forged passport then that's an offence and you're shipped back home. If you apply for asylum with a genuine passport then the issuing of the passport proves that your home government isn't imposing unfair restrictions upon you, so your application for asylum can be rejected out of hand. Joseph Heller would be proud.
Dear monos, a secret truth.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307845
18/01/2012 22:01
18/01/2012 22:01
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,927 The Faringdon Folly
oxfordSteve
Forum is my job
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Forum is my job
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,927
The Faringdon Folly
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Nice to know that in Shiney's world, if you arrived in Dover in 1939, on any forged papers you could get hold of, he would pack you back off to Hitler. or from Zimbabwe or darfur or apartheid south Africa or pinochets Chile or soviet Russia or Vietnam or north Korea or modern day China or any number of other places run by total .
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: oxfordSteve]
#1307858
18/01/2012 22:21
18/01/2012 22:21
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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Whats more interesting is that for a highly intelligent chap like yourself Steve, you cannot see that there is no E in the word shiny. Or even more interesting, is that apparently, believing that the British tax payer should not foot the bill for wanted terrorists to live in a country they hate, want to destroy, and have no right or reason to even stand in as they came here illegally on false documents, is in some way related to Naziism. Maybe do a little more research.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: oxfordSteve]
#1307870
18/01/2012 22:33
18/01/2012 22:33
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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There will be some people taking advantage of our hospitality, of course, but i see no reason why this should mean we slam the door. So I have to ask, given that the man in question is a wanted terrorist, who freely encouraged others to attack and kill British civilians, if this is not enough reason in your eyes to 'slam the door', what exactly does a man or woman have to do, to not be given the golden ticket of UK residency?
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: oxfordSteve]
#1307873
18/01/2012 22:38
18/01/2012 22:38
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,748 Pistonheads
Brewster
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,748
Pistonheads
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There will be some people taking advantage of our hospitality, of course, but i see no reason why this should mean we slam the door. If I turned up on your doorstep, cold, hungry and in desperate need you're probably kind enough to let me come in, give me a warm bowl of soup, a blanket, maybe even a tenner to see me right for a day or two. If I then stood up in your lounge in front of your family and proclaim that you should all die a horrible death for being infidels I imagine you'd ask me to leave if not forcibly eject me. This man needs forcibly ejecting, regardless of what the ECHR says. I don't care where he goes, I don't care how he goes and I certainly don't care what happens when he gets there, but it is entirely right that he goes. A disgusting, odious turd of a sub-human that doesn't deserve to lick my boots. I would gladly be the man to put the noose around his neck and pull the lever.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: oxfordSteve]
#1307877
18/01/2012 22:43
18/01/2012 22:43
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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A wanted terrorist found guilty based on evidence gained under torture. Ah, so his actions, comments, preachings, openly praising Usama Bin Laden, being known to be involved in radical Islamic groups within in the UK and abroad etc, this is all just circumstantial? A pure coincidence no doubt. FFS do people really need a weatherman to tell them when its raining?!
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307887
18/01/2012 23:04
18/01/2012 23:04
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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Frankly I wouldn't want another penny spent on him, and certainly not the several millions of pounds it would cost to take him to court.
Just give him back to the Jordanians.
If Allah really is looking out for him, he'll be fine...
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307888
18/01/2012 23:04
18/01/2012 23:04
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603
Corridor of Uncertainty
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So I have to ask, given that the man in question is a wanted terrorist, who freely encouraged others to attack and kill British civilians, if this is not enough reason in your eyes to 'slam the door', what exactly does a man or woman have to do, to not be given the golden ticket of UK residency?
In all seriousness, why has he not stood trial in the UK? If we all have all these facts, why is he not serving life at HM's pleasure? Is it those liberals again? Interfering with their need for proof? I'm genuinely baffled.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307923
19/01/2012 00:22
19/01/2012 00:22
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 776 State of Essex .
robcoupe20vt
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 776
State of Essex .
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Lets hope the British Goverment appeal the ECHR ruling and hes kicked out of this country but i wont hold my breath .
Fiat 20VT Fiat 16vt Fiat 130TC Fiat 131 sport Kawasaki ZX6RP7F Kawasaki GPZ550 Kawasaki ZX7R P2
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307928
19/01/2012 00:43
19/01/2012 00:43
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,568 Northampton England
Sedicivalvole
Club member 2092
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Club member 2092
Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,568
Northampton England
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Jim you're right it's that blasted evidence thing again.
I'm glad someone mentioned the lack of an official passport when arriving claiming asylum. I had hoped when I started reading it was an ironic post.
I agree, we should be proud to have an open door to those in need. Obviously a small minority will abuse it. That is true of all though.
Vinci Grey LE Alfa 147 GTA 3.2 V6 BMW E92 M3 4.0 V8 Fiat Tipo Sedicivalvole 2.0 16v ABS
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1307937
19/01/2012 01:18
19/01/2012 01:18
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
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In all seriousness, why has he not stood trial in the UK? If we all have all these facts, why is he not serving life at HM's pleasure? Your guess is as good as mine. As the BBC reports - Even as late as 1997, he was not considered to be fully part of the wider movement of international violent jihad, which al-Qaeda was coming to spearhead.
But the authorities believe his views were hardening, particularly after a sermon targeting Jews. And by 2001, the cleric had issued rulings justifying suicide attacks, as seen in a BBC Panorama interview the same year.
A Spanish judge Baltasar Garzon described Qatada as the "spiritual head of the mujahedin in Britain" - so the question for the British authorities was whether Qatada now supported "martyrdom operations" against Western targets.
The Security Service and police eventually concluded that Abu Qatada was a threat. In a court statement they said he was providing advice which gave religious legitimacy to those "who wish to further the aims of extreme Islamism and to engage in terrorist attacks, including suicide bombings".
The authorities said that a number of people arrested in connection with terrorism had described Qatada's influence. Richard Reid, the would-be mid-Atlantic shoe bomber, and Zacarias Moussaoui, both jailed for involvement in terrorism, are said to have sought religious advice from him. The cleric's sermons were found in a Hamburg flat used by some of those involved in 9/11.
When Qatada was questioned in 2001 over his alleged connections to a German cell, police found £170,000 cash in his home, including £805 in an envelope labelled "For the mujahideen in Chechnya". No charges were brought.
But on the eve of a new law to hold foreign terrorism suspects without charge or trial, he disappeared. He was later tracked down to a council house in south London and taken to Belmarsh Prison.
The Law Lords eventually ruled such detention illegal and Qatada was among those subjected to a control order, a form of house-arrest.
He was then rearrested and told he would be deported to Jordan, where he had been convicted in his absence of alleged involvement in a plot to target Americans and Israeli tourists during the country's millennium celebrations. Couple that with entering the UK illegally, I'd say the evidence is laid out for all to see, and its time to say goodbye to Mr Qatada. Then again, it seems by reading some of the posts on this thread, nothing short of this man strapping a kilo of semtex to his balls and blowing up your spouse is going to convince you that he is not worthy of being wrapped up in the Human Rights bubble of cotton wool.
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307978
19/01/2012 08:41
19/01/2012 08:41
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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Correct. Until 1814 treason was punishable by hanging, but before death the bowels were removed and burnt in front of the miscreant, then beheading then quartering. Ouch . After this date simple hanging was felt to be sufficient. So we've been suffering with bleeding heart liberals since at least 1814 then?
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: Another proud moment for Human Rights...
[Re: ]
#1307988
19/01/2012 09:50
19/01/2012 09:50
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603
Corridor of Uncertainty
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...I'd say the evidence is laid out for all to see, and its time to say goodbye to Mr Qatada. Now that's where I feel your argument lacks a tiny bit of weight. Even if you were one of m'learned friends, experienced in this kind of case, your "man-in-the-street reckon" here lacks a little persuasive proof. Don't forget, HMG agree with you in many ways and will have some pretty heavyweight briefs on the job. So, the fact that even they can't deport him makes me think the actual, real evidence (as opposed to what appears in the media) must lack a bit of substance.
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