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rear spring bias
#1287292
07/11/2011 18:33
07/11/2011 18:33
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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I am having trouble nailing the handling of my coupe,i have spent lots of time and money trying to get it right. The problem i'm getting is the rear "moves" a lot, if you pretend your warming up the tyres on a gp circuit the rear of the car "moves" and "squirms" almost like its trying to "oversteer". So it turns in very sharp but you have to be quite sensitive with your steering inputs otherwise you get the rear moving around which is unsettling in high speed bends,its never let go but for me it does not inspire confidence.
The car "handles" as demonstrated by my friend (a bit of a wheel man) who took me to the notorious perbright bends in surrey and (a) scared the life out of me and (b) said it probably carried a similar speed to his e46 m3 down the same stretch of very twisty road, helped by the mobile rear end adding turn-in and helping the front resist understeer.
I thought it may have been a trailing arm problem and have only recently got round to changing them, which has not cured it. I also have solid rear subframe bushes so they should be good, playing with the dampers helps as it slows the movement of the rear but ultimately feels the same.
so this leaves my 25lb rear spring bias will this lead to a mobile rear end? or do people think there could be still problems with the trailing arms/bushes?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287391
07/11/2011 21:48
07/11/2011 21:48
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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The rear trailing arm bearings have been changed and I have the solid subframe mounts joe, the mounts were second hand but i figured there only metal so cant go to far wrong?......could there still be play in the mounts/bearings? is there anyway to check this?
Also might try putting in std rear springs.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287395
07/11/2011 22:00
07/11/2011 22:00
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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gaz dampers, std 20vt wheels, falken 452 tyres.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287403
07/11/2011 22:12
07/11/2011 22:12
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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hmmm not saying your wrong but does anyone else get this on std wheels/ 225 45 16 tyres?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287465
08/11/2011 00:58
08/11/2011 00:58
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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32psi
Going back to the springs they are a std style spring but they have two sections a 325lb main section and a 190lb section that runs fully compressed to stop the spring from dislodging on full droop, even though it should be fully compressed with the weight of the car on it, it might be the transition when in a bend switching between the 190lb and the 325lb section?
the other thing is it maybe just the effect of running a harder spring in the rear?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287525
08/11/2011 11:43
08/11/2011 11:43
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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playing with the dampers has little effect,my fronts are already stiff and it does not feel any better stiffer i just get bad ride and more understeer but the back feels the same. the back actually feels a little better with the dampers harder as it "slows" the roll, if that makes sense? Im not actually getting oversteer and it has never really bitten but at speed it turns in very fast and its a split second before the rear follows and then it follows with "jink"..if that makes sense.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287532
08/11/2011 12:20
08/11/2011 12:20
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369
Staffordshire
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it turns in very fast and its a split second before the rear follows and then it follows with "jink"..if that makes sense. Yes - makes a lot of sense and it must be disconcerting when it's being driven hard My first guess would be tyres - a soft-sidewalled tyre might cause the behaviour you describe. The front tyre will always use up its sidewall deflection first, due the the extra weight and the fact the the front wheels are doing the steering. The (much) lighter rear end will then fall onto its tyre sidewalls a little later. I would try to borrow a set of wheels and (good) low-sidewalled tyres to see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, you have something flexing or moving. Whilst it would be logical to suspect the rear radius arms or subframe mounts, I would have a close look at the front subframe and the wishbone mounts.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287535
08/11/2011 12:29
08/11/2011 12:29
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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You know what, i think you guys maybe on to something....I also spoke to my friend who drove the car and he agrees as he had the same thing on his e30 m3 and said tyre choice made a huge difference to how it felt giving the feeling described.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287544
08/11/2011 13:14
08/11/2011 13:14
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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falken 452 are 89y and toyo t1r are 93w in the same size.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287590
08/11/2011 15:19
08/11/2011 15:19
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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i have falken 452 all round, just noting sidewall stiffness on websites!
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287607
08/11/2011 16:06
08/11/2011 16:06
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,706 Gone
Jimbo
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,706
Gone
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You know what, i think you guys maybe on to something.... We aren't just pretty faces you know.........And Nigel's not even that pretty!
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287611
08/11/2011 16:21
08/11/2011 16:21
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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well i have been looking around the net and few people have had noted the same rolling/double bite at speed putting it down to the 452's tread movement/sidewall stiffness, but it gets complicated because tyre sizes come into it and 17s and above will have stiffer sidewalls and xl ratings so many do not mention this. if its as simple as this i will be pleased as punch and be very happy with my car as this will be the final piece to my coupe puzzle...just need to find another £1000 now! p.s im sure your both stunners ![love love](/forum/images/graemlins/default/love.gif)
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287616
08/11/2011 16:32
08/11/2011 16:32
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369
Staffordshire
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p.s im sure your both stunners Only when it's very dark..... well i have been looking around the net and few people have had noted the same rolling/double bite at speed putting it down to the 452's tread movement/sidewall stiffness I had a very similar experience when I fitted a set of four Toyo Proxies PX4 - the Toyo website listed them as "the new Ultra-high performance tyre", but the car was terrible. read my thread about awful Toyos well worth reading, just to hear how the tyre problems manifested themselves. Note that halfway down the page, DaveT recalls having a similar problem with some Falkens. Quite simply, the tread blocks were moving around, causing all sorts of steering and stability problems. I could even make the car turn by booting it hard in a straight line ![shocked shocked](/forum/images/graemlins/default/shocked.gif) By far the simplest way to confirm or eliminate this hypothesis is to fit another set of wheels and tyres. If you weren't so far away, I'd offer to lend you mine to try out.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287635
08/11/2011 18:29
08/11/2011 18:29
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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thanks for the offer nigel,funny enough i have always wanted you to drive my car to steer me in the right direction (no pun intended) but as you say we to far apart.
out of interest is there still a gb on the prorace 1.2 that need no spigot rings/right offset etc, where do i get them from and what do i ask for etc?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287666
08/11/2011 20:41
08/11/2011 20:41
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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next wednesday could work, its a little drive to horsham but would be interesting to see what you think! pm me the details of when and where!
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287723
09/11/2011 00:57
09/11/2011 00:57
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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apart from 17's I was thinking of trying some 16" trackday tyres on the spare set of wheels i have, I have been looking at the federal 595RS-R as there cheap and seem to get fairly good reviews on the net and a few people have run them on here. I am slightly worried that there load rating is 87w so less than the falken but does that mean in the real world they will be softer? being a track tyre they should have strong sidewalls and tread blocks? I am attending the trackday this sunday so mind is split what to do, the federals are only £320 for four....but then that money could be put towards 17's if i decide to go that route ![chinny chinny](/forum/images/graemlins/default/scratchchin.gif) nigel did you find a change in feel from running your 17's with t1r and 16's with the trackday tyres on?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287755
09/11/2011 10:26
09/11/2011 10:26
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369
Staffordshire
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nigel did you find a change in feel from running your 17's with t1r and 16's with the trackday tyres on? Yes - the 16" trackday tyres were firmer than the 17" T1Rs (and of course they gave much more grip). However, this was partly because I chose to fit the stiff-sidewalled Dunlops on the front and the soft-sidewalled Yoko AO48s on the rear. The handling was very pointy, with the back end getting quite loose, but that's what you want on a tight handling circuit like they run at TOTB
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287829
09/11/2011 14:27
09/11/2011 14:27
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,227 FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising
Club Rep Europe, member 914
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Club Rep Europe, member 914
Forum veteran
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,227
FCSS 01684 593187
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Hopefully this thread will make life easier for other Coupe owners when setting up the rear end as I spent ages getting mine right and had to try different setups until I was happy, there is one item I haven't read or I've missed it in this thread, rear anti roll bar, is yours standard jonone?
I tried several different conponents, solid rear mounts first which were too noisy so I've changed back to new OEM rubber mounts, new trailing arm bearings, hubs, 16"-17" and finally 18" rims but the biggest difference I noted with the lively rear end steer and weight transfer was an uprated 22mm ARB, I even tried a 24mm but found this too stiff so changed it back, now mine is really quite planted and I can predict it's movement dependant on road condition and speed.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287836
09/11/2011 14:42
09/11/2011 14:42
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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full list is: 22mm whiteline rear arb. dedra front arb. gaz dampers. 300lb front springs. 190/325lb rear springs. solid rear bushes. new trailing arm bearings. increased caster top mounts. barbz hub centric washers for camber. poly bushed wish bones. 16vt upper strut brace. omp lower brace. 16" 20vt wheels 225/45/16 falken 452 tyres. geometry is: 1 degree camber , 2mm total toe in. ![zzz zzz](/forum/images/graemlins/default/boring.gif)
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287922
09/11/2011 19:45
09/11/2011 19:45
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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recaro speed seats and momo course steering wheel too.....do they count?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287930
09/11/2011 20:01
09/11/2011 20:01
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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another thing thats slightly annoying is i plumped for more camber in the straight ahead (1 degree) mainly to weight up the steering...which it has done but it definitely has made it tram-line/torque steer more. might need to find a balance maybe 0.8 of a degree?
do people normally run 17x7j? is there any point in going for 7.5j? what tyre would you run on 7.5j? i know 215/40/17 is the best size but there is more choice in 215/45/17 like the f1 assymetric 2 and the conti sportcontact 5 will there be any handling differences?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: Countrycruising]
#1287932
09/11/2011 20:02
09/11/2011 20:02
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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They're more form over function so no not really stops my ass from sliding which is functional is it not?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: Nigel]
#1287938
09/11/2011 20:08
09/11/2011 20:08
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patch234
Unregistered
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patch234
Unregistered
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The ProRace 1.2 deal never took off, although I reckon they will still do you a good price - speak with Andy Williams at Rimstock in Birmingham
Awaiting reply, thanks Nigel
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287957
09/11/2011 20:46
09/11/2011 20:46
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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The ProRace 1.2 deal never took off, although I reckon they will still do you a good price - speak with Andy Williams at Rimstock in Birmingham
Awaiting reply, thanks Nigel me too!
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: Nigel]
#1287959
09/11/2011 20:53
09/11/2011 20:53
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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215/45 will give you a slightly taller sidewall, so there will be more tyre roll (for the same make of tyre)
Also, I believe several Coupe owners have noted wheelarch liner rubbing with 215/45 17
As for camber - I also run 1 degree negative and I have almost zero torquesteer yes, its weird i would not expect it to have made the difference it has?
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1287966
09/11/2011 21:06
09/11/2011 21:06
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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no there fixed...might see if 0.8 is a happy medium between steering weight and tram-lining.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1288003
09/11/2011 22:58
09/11/2011 22:58
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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the place barbz takes its to...they have done my geo about six times.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1289817
16/11/2011 23:47
16/11/2011 23:47
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Jon,if you get a chance nip the car over and i will have a good look over it on the ramp. Quite keen to see whats causing this as my sprintey is also a little lively to say the least at the back end.Great fun around Donington on sunday but a little unnerving on the road.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1289877
17/11/2011 11:17
17/11/2011 11:17
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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Thanks again to nigel for taking the time to drive my car...it was nice to meet you especially in the name of science! i have run less camber (0.5 degrees) in the straight ahead and that made no difference to how the back end felt,but it did tramline less and the steering was a bit lighter. at one point when i was waiting for my springs to be made i did have 350lb springs on the front and std springs on the rear,but i did not drive the car hard in this state and i suppose i was not looking for it to cure my symptoms at the time, i only noticed more roll at the back....i could try this again! i'm still leaning towards the tyre's but not dismissing the spring bias has nothing to do with it, in-fact it might be a combination of both? 3rd post down explains my symptoms spot on! johnny i would love to "nip" up and see you but your hardly round the corner! ![laugh laugh](/forum/images/graemlins/default/laugh.gif) but you never know might be worth a trip! out of interest what tyres are you running on your sprinty?
Last edited by jonone; 17/11/2011 11:32.
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1289880
17/11/2011 11:44
17/11/2011 11:44
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,296 Sandhurst
Begbie
ex El Presidente
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ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,296
Sandhurst
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If you want to pop over to Shalford for a couple of hours next weekend, you can try my wheels on your car, 17" 7.5 on a Toyo 215/40/17
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1289886
17/11/2011 12:06
17/11/2011 12:06
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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thanks, i might just take you up on this i will pm you ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1290022
17/11/2011 22:50
17/11/2011 22:50
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Toyo T1r's on the sprintey and on my black coupe. Folk come from France to see me and Scotland.So your only around the corner ![laugh laugh](/forum/images/graemlins/default/laugh.gif)
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1290035
17/11/2011 23:25
17/11/2011 23:25
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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ok maybe i'm just lazy ![zzz zzz](/forum/images/graemlins/default/boring.gif)
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Re: rear spring bias
[Re: ]
#1295569
08/12/2011 11:47
08/12/2011 11:47
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jonone
Unregistered
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jonone
Unregistered
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hopefully a mini comparison between the bc and gaz too! im interested on how alexis feels his car now drives with equal front and rear spring rates.
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