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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266456
03/10/2011 17:56
03/10/2011 17:56
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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Nigel - can't remember saying that but I certainly went into great depth on all th relevant features. The fundamental problem is the port floor is way too high above the valves. The last thing you want on an inclined valve head with a decent amount of port downdraft is a long short radius like the 20v has. The port exhibits two very distinct flow regimes - at lower lift and higher lift. And at higher lift separation in the lowr port section completely disrupts the flow. NO, even though you're getting 400bhp from yours I can assure you the 20v doesn't develop anything like the flow a head with those valve sizes should/could.
G
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266472
03/10/2011 18:49
03/10/2011 18:49
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I made a note that you managed to flow 137 CFM @ 10" through the head you prepped with 32mm valves fitted. Is that not good then?
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266513
03/10/2011 20:51
03/10/2011 20:51
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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What diameter inlet valve does the 20v have out of interest?
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266514
03/10/2011 20:54
03/10/2011 20:54
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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29.5mm I believe
Last edited by group5lancia; 03/10/2011 21:01.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266520
03/10/2011 21:08
03/10/2011 21:08
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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In my personal opinion,regardless of who it upsets i wouldnt even entertain using anyone else other than Barbz for the head work. Simple facts. Tried and tested for years,hes a nice chap and personally i have seen gains of increased spool up on the same turbo,brilliant fuel economy,water and oil temps cooler and to reiterate hes a nice chap who will go way beyond the call of duty to ensure the engine you asked for is supplied to you. In my case he even came upto Bristol to ensure things were going smoothly.
Guy i wouldnt recommend you to cut lawns. Your arrogant beyond belief and are known throughout the trade for your attitude and prices.
Theres no need for it and im surprised you get any customers at all.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266524
03/10/2011 21:15
03/10/2011 21:15
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Does 'Barbz' use the forum ? Perhaps he could be good enough to come on and explain why what he does to these heads to get such good results.
Last edited by tricky; 03/10/2011 21:15.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266526
03/10/2011 21:17
03/10/2011 21:17
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Does 'Barbz' use the forum ? Perhaps he could be good enough to come on and explain why what he does to these heads to get such good results. Then everyone else would do the headwork and he would be out of a job.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266536
03/10/2011 21:37
03/10/2011 21:37
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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No, he would have more work. If you can explain your method and back up what you do with scientific facts the chances are people will not always understand in all cases, but logic and common sense always ring true in a persons mind. People who can't or won't explain in detail the why's and wherefores, in my experience either hold onto information in the stupid belif that no one else will ever know it (even if your wrong) or just don't know what there doing.
I read a lot about barbz on the forum, i'd be interested to hear about the 20v ports from the horses mouth.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266537
03/10/2011 21:38
03/10/2011 21:38
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266544
03/10/2011 22:02
03/10/2011 22:02
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Thats not how it works. A winning formula is never disclosed.
Try asking Flea to reveal in depth all of his maps,graphs and data from the last 5 years so everyone can see how he does it. Many have tried but only 1 succeeds. Barbz is no different.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266550
03/10/2011 22:07
03/10/2011 22:07
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
OP
I need some sleep
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OP
I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Totally agree with that last post from JBT
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266551
03/10/2011 22:12
03/10/2011 22:12
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Thats not how it works. A winning formula is never disclosed.
For some maybe, for me I'd like to know what I'm paying for. At least Guy has put a point across about a potential problem with the head, aren't you interested to know how it can be overcome or improved ?
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266552
03/10/2011 22:12
03/10/2011 22:12
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Whoops, my mistake - that link goes to Begbies build. Matty's is here Link
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266557
03/10/2011 22:23
03/10/2011 22:23
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
OP
I need some sleep
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OP
I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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@ Tricky, im sure if you go to Barbz for headwork and you were paying him to do it for you, im sure he would answer any questions you had about what he was doing or how he was doing it along with anything else, but also in private.
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266562
03/10/2011 22:40
03/10/2011 22:40
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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I'm sure your right, I was just hoping to provoke a decent discussion and maybe learn more about the 20v head.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266566
03/10/2011 22:50
03/10/2011 22:50
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Sorry but I know exactly what Barbz does and how Guy operates. I've know Barbs for longer then 99% of people on here and seen how he performs the work carried out. I am also customer of Guy Croft's, will be indebted to all the help he has give to me over the years above and beyond engines even down to checking my own technical drawings.
I know why people compare apples and oranges - they purely do not know the difference. I do know the difference, its not based on feeling or person friendship but on quantifiable operations, proceedures, principles and standards - area which I compare to knowledge learned from published works from an array of authors and not heresay on internet forums. This means I can judge peoples work to standards I am aware of - they same way you can judge a builders work when you know how things should be built on a house. Most on here do not know what they are looking at yet state an opinions based only on BHP numbers, its only a part of the story.
So I can say categorically that comparisons are pointless as I know both sides of this fruitless argument I can state simply that Barbs and Guy Croft are not in the same business. If you have a certain budget go one route, if want a race engine go the other route. But please everyone stop and consider to yourselves - 'what do I really know about subject xyz' to make a judgement. A difference exists for a reason, and there is nothing wrong with that reason.
Last edited by sediciRich; 03/10/2011 22:54.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266584
03/10/2011 23:21
03/10/2011 23:21
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,296 Sandhurst
Begbie
ex El Presidente
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ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,296
Sandhurst
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Guy i wouldnt recommend you to cut lawns. Your arrogant beyond belief and are known throughout the trade for your attitude and prices.
Theres no need for it and im surprised you get any customers at all. A bit uncalled for John and not really professional for one trader to be slagging off another business / person. Does 'Barbz' use the forum ? Perhaps he could be good enough to come on and explain why what he does to these heads to get such good results. Squish band. @ Tricky, im sure if you go to Barbz for headwork and you were paying him to do it for you, im sure he would answer any questions you had about what he was doing or how he was doing it along with anything else, but also in private. Can't see Tricky doing that to be honest. Having seen what he has built in his own spare time at quite a cost, he wouldn't be going to Barbz for the head work. Rich, apologies if I'm putting words into your mouth here. What we need, is one engine built by Barbz without headwork, then one with headwork and compare the results, via an engine dyno, rather than a RR as there would be too many variables. Another question you have to ask is, does Barbz have a flow bench? AFAIK he doesn't, so how do you know if one port is going to match the other port, then match each cylinder and have equal flow across all of it? You can't without a flow bench. Like Rich said earlier, I've known Barbz for about 10 - 12 years or so and is always there for hands on advice and have nothing against the man either.
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266587
03/10/2011 23:31
03/10/2011 23:31
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
OP
I need some sleep
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OP
I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Begbie, im just saying it theoretically as Tricky was saying about Barbz coming on here and telling evryone how things are done and going back to the point that JBT made about Flea and the mapping. Im not saying Tricky should get headwork done by Barbz. What im saying is if he were to and wanted to ask some questions personally then im sure there would be no problems in hiding anything.
Capiche?
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266589
03/10/2011 23:36
03/10/2011 23:36
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Someone must have a picture of a port/combustion chamber worked by Barbz?
I would like to see anyone copy a port just from a picture (it's impossible you can be sure) so there'd be no harm done to hard won experience but for me I'd be able to tell a head that had potentail to be good and no I'd not be copying it, 16 ports is more than enough hassle to work on.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266590
03/10/2011 23:37
03/10/2011 23:37
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Ta muchly
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266593
03/10/2011 23:46
03/10/2011 23:46
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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If there's no explanation when buying services and parts for engines my advice is to run a mile, so many make believe they know all about this vast topic (performance engines)but when it gets down to the nitty gritty they are soon show to be lacking.
This I'm not aiming at either Guy or Barbz as I know them both to be free sharing, it is a common trait in this trade though. I always look at it from the point of view that those that really do know there stuff have no concerns about sharing info, they are safe in the knowledge they could never cover all the variables in a simple explanation. Huge papers are written on tiny subjects.
Last edited by 1NRO; 03/10/2011 23:47.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266603
04/10/2011 00:06
04/10/2011 00:06
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Nik thanks that was kind of my point.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: Begbie]
#1266604
04/10/2011 00:08
04/10/2011 00:08
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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"Squish band." As in 'the' or is that his forum name
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266605
04/10/2011 00:11
04/10/2011 00:11
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Most on here do not know what they are looking at yet state an opinions based only on BHP numbers I'd say that's a pretty good way of telling whether something is doing its job or not.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: Begbie]
#1266609
04/10/2011 00:18
04/10/2011 00:18
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Guy i wouldnt recommend you to cut lawns. Your arrogant beyond belief and are known throughout the trade for your attitude and prices.
Theres no need for it and im surprised you get any customers at all.
A bit uncalled for John and not really professional for one trader to be slagging off another I must be honest, I don't know Guy Croft from adam, but from what I've seen so far, I'm not really impressed.
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: technics]
#1266612
04/10/2011 00:27
04/10/2011 00:27
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,643 Watford
MarioCirillo
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,643
Watford
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Lets keep this thread on topic and not make it personal please otherwise it will be locked. There was some good information on this in the initial stages!
Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041
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Re: Define Headwork for me please.
[Re: ]
#1266622
04/10/2011 01:07
04/10/2011 01:07
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,673 SW London
Rudidudi
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,673
SW London
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Most on here do not know what they are looking at yet state an opinions based only on BHP numbers I'd say that's a pretty good way of telling whether something is doing its job or not. its a very crude way. area under the curve baby, thats the real test for road going cars with std ratio boxes
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