Just got the car back today...
It looks low... very low... Its odd as the eibachs are the same as what i had on the car before.

When i go over pot holes - not even at great speed (not all pot holes but some) I hear a massive Thud. So bad that it actually makes you jump...

I know many people have this set up and wanted to know what your opinions are on it. Could it be something else causing it? The thud comes from the front and is very violent... almost like the car is bottoming out. Ive changed the ARB (std with powerflex bushes) all of the other suspension has been replaced... Really not sure what could be causing it. I know the suspension is going to be stiff but the noise is very worrying and makes me on edge when driving the car.

Any ideas would be greatly appriciated...

This is Eper
Click For Image

This is my setup


One thing ive noticed on eper there seems to be a bumpstop at the front (no 5 in the image)

I dont have this...

I have Shock, Spring, Coil Bearing, Top Mount...

Is my issue that im missing the bumpstop in the image above...Or is that just a gater?

The only other thing it could be is the drop links... these were purchased from eurocar parts...

That's not going to be your problem mate!!! Just got back home and didn't have time to call you back!!!

Did you remove the top stabiliser bar at the garage??

Also, is it from one side or both???

yes, but refitted it...
both sides mate
my dad said the drop links didnt look right but possibly because on the ramp the car wasnt under load....

Can you get it to me??

We can take a wheel off each and compare the arb/ drop lins ect

If you don't align the stab bar, it can cause a horrid bang over bumps and hard acc.

Hate to sound like a hum bug, but it does not sound right... Saying that, mine bangs over pot holes....

Billies are stiffer....
(giggady)

You bribing it over??

its not a normal bang though marco...
As you know I had koni and eibach before... this is a really violent thud honestly its almost like the wheel is going to come flying off... its that bad. If i cant get it to my dads tomorrow i may have to take you up on that offer...

What an anticlimax after 8 months of work on the car
On the plus side... it looks amazing

When I had them on, at town speeds, you really felt going over a pot hole but never enough to think the wheel was going to come off

Mario, as i said this morning, there is an underlining issue with is.
some thing is hitting/ making contact some where!!

bring it to me!!!

Cheers for the reply Duncan!
Ive been in many cars with this setup and im well aware of how harsh the ride is... there is clearly as marco stated something not quite right...

Taking the car to the garage this evening to have a look will take some pictures and post on here. Marco I may come up and see you soon... unless you fancy Ace tomorrow? Suspension rebuild in the carpark sounds like a plan

i will see if my mrs wants to come ace! not too sure if i can be arsed tbh, will see what happens...

just get down to mine!

Got to go ace tomorrow mate otherwise I would come to yours

My old man recons the issue is the shocks and the springs he says they are far too low and thats whats causing the issue. He says there is hardly any travel and its causing it to bottom out when hitting big pot holes. It does it on both sides...

It would be useful for me if others with the eibach/billie combo could comment on this please

Thanks

how open are the springs when the car is at rest? they might be going coil bound when you hit a bump,this will make it bang.

If your saying it looks lower than normal they are to short/to soft for the car i.e, the wrong set of eibachs.

Mario, The travel of the bilstein shockers is indeed very short with the eibach springs. The B6 is meant to be paired with the standard springs but alot here stick lowered springs on anyway (Including myself )

I think your problem is because you don't have any bumpstops on. When installing bumpstops, you would most definitely need to cut them down too due to the reduced piston travel on the shocks. I've tried installing the bumpstops as it is before (without cutting them down) but they just rode on them.

Sparkyman on her has E & B's on his and constantly complains about the ride on bumpy/uneven roads.

After driving mine (standard suspension but all new) I would never go back to modded suspension.

Ross

Kelv
Thanks for the reply!(and jonone)
Do you have a photo or diagrame of how the bump stop should be on the front?
Ive never seen them on the front and i cant see it in eper?

The springs and shocks were purchased from AA (by duncan) so they should be the correct spec...

too low?



Ross
I dont mind about the ride... its my toy car so by no means a comfort car... however the bang is whats worrying and im pretty sure it shouldnt be doing that. Hopefully sparky can comment...

I'll text/phone him and draw his attention to this and let him comment.

As for the pics, I don't think it looks too low mate. Definately seen lower.

Ross

My thoughts exactly
Thanks Ross!

Also anyone who could explain about where the bump stops go on the front that Kelv was refering too would be a great help

Put a piece of rubber / foam inside the spring to act as a temp. bump stop. If it still does it, it's the suspension that's going to the end of its travel. Can also be the ARB or drop links.

Can you explain how the ARB and drop links would effect it please?

My gut feeling is the drop links... when it was up on the ramp they looked like they were under a lot of stress on the ARB IE... they were at a sharp angle rather than sitting nice on the arb

Damn, first you ask a question then you partly answer it yourself.

ARB / bushes / drop links when they're worn (or even new) or under stress due to tension / incorrect fitting (if at all possible) can cause serious knocking as if two big pieces of wood hit each other. A dry "PACK!". Especially when braking over eg. coblestones. The more unforgiving your suspension is, the more obvious it would be I'd say.

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1185572&Searchpage=1&Main=99501&Words=%2Bknocking+%2Bsuspension&Search=true#Post1185572

You could also take out the drop links to check whether it still does it. May rule out or confirm the ARB / drop links.

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1116179&Searchpage=1&Main=92278&Words=%2Bknocking+%2Bsuspension&Search=true#Post1116179

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1100452&Searchpage=1&Main=92029&Words=%2Bknocking+%2Bsuspension&Search=true#Post1100452

yeah, all the bits were ordered from AA, and as far as i'm aware, there is only one type of Eibach spring for the 20vt. Mario, I'm sure I gave you a copy of the invoice from AA when we met up (if not, I can send you another one)

I remember ordering Fiat OE Bump-stops for the rear but there weren't any to buy for the fronts. The garage took the B/E combo off for standard parts 2 months later, i'm sure everything related to the B/E combo was taken off (e.g. no missing boots, that we did question on the front shocks, but other forum members said the same thing, in that, there weren't any).

The Eibach/Bilstein combo really does tighten up the front end. Standard suspension isn't too far off the Eibach/Bilstein setup. B/E are noticeably harder over any bumps/road surfacing lines and you feel the undulations in the road surface (unlike standard suspension).

What Mario is describing sounds like there is something wrong with the setup. They're progressive springs so around town it's close to standard suspension in terms of ride quality (i.e. <40 mph), I remember hitting pot-holes and it is worse with the billies and eibachs on but no way did it sounds like there was metallic banging noises or fear of a wheel coming off. At worst, i'd feel it through the dash and the car would rattle and squeak more. I went back to the standard suspension for the better ride quality. At A-Road/Motorway speeds (60mph +), they really firm up and you really start to notice how hard they are and how closely they follow the road surface.


Prior to the billies/eibachs going on, I had new wishbones, drop-links and track-rod ends. This was all fitted by my local garage though.

Did you fit pattern wishbones or OE?

The ride height looks about right Mario. The bumstops slip onto the piston rod and is between the topmounts and the shock body. So basically you would need to compress the springs, remove the topmount, and sleeve it onto the piston.

I got polyurethene ones fitted and they look like this (before shortening):


..and comes with this dustboot..but i find them way too soft and eventually shreds to bits.


The OE bumstop comes with the dustboot as well.

Interesting read...
All of the suspension is brand new... inc the ARB bushes...
I guess Were going to have to play around with different things?

I'd guess so. Do some tests... Disconnect drop links first. Then look for loose bolts on the suspension. After that, try to limit engine / gearbox movement (block of wood somewhere) and see if that helps.

If it is bottoming out whats my options? Change the sprins?
The thing is duncan has a plus (with aircon onviously) and he didnt get this issue...

There's got to be something not quite right in the setup as mine looked as low as yours from the pictures, i'm totally not mechanically good but i'm sure Marco will be able to sort it out once you've got the thing apart.

It definitely feels like there is no spring there and its bottoming out. So if it didnt do it on your car and does it on my car then there is something that is contributing to this... something thats making it bottom out... It does it on both sides so logically i can only thing of the ARB? Not sure how or what i can do to adjust it though? Surly if it fits then thats it? Nothing is lose as we checked on the ramp.

If anyone has photos of the Front Bump Stops and how they are fitted that would also be useful...

Per?

Mario, check the top nut on the shocks is TIGHT.

we can wack some foam in there to see if it stops but i dont think it will have any noticeable impact.

this is going to be a trial an error thing!

i cant wait to get my hands back on the car again!!!

what i will do, if you can get it over asap, we will check and compare each side to mine.
if the ARB is hitting some thing, we will bring it to my work and adjust it with the plasma cutter

joking

i will fix it mate!!!!

really, the only BIG thing we changed is the ARB, thats the only thing every one is moaning about!!!

I could be wrong but it just sounds to me like the front is bottoming out, and because you don't have bump stops fitted, it's making a loud bang as the strut slams into the topmount. I think you should try doing as Kelv has mentioned and fit some bump stops. You can just use the standard ones and trim them down before fitting them.

Thats what im thinking/hoping

Does anyone have a picture of what it looks like with the bump stops? or even a picture of the bump stops as ive never seen them on the front suspension

Did you not have any front bump stops on when you removed your old suspension?

No i didnt duncan
Well i dont think i did... Marco has my suspension so he will know

whats left of them lol
there abused and falling apart...

not caring too much as they do the job and dont bang

fancy a swap mario?

Not sure, those look smaller. Here´s a pic which also shows how much needs to be removed:

http://sfk.ibk.se/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=116326

ah ok, What Boosted7 said sounds like that could well be the issue then.

Having had the garage do all of my suspension work, I can only assume that they used my original front bump stops on for the Billies and when I had the standard ones back on.

I ordered new rear bump stops but none for the front and that is only because I couldn't see any brand new ones for sale from Alternate Autos.

I think we have found my problem...

Ive never heard of it on a billy/eibach combo but ive never heard of anyone withouth bumpstops on the front, however it could be one of two thing, either the damper is bottoming out due to the lowered spring or the spring is going coil bound.

Both of these will be prevented by fitting a bump stop and it's something I'd do asap!

Does it feel as if the suspension suddenly runs out of travel and gives a real jolt/thud through the entire chassis?

Have a look at the springs, are there marks on the coils as if they have been touching each other?

Yeah that's my picture. I cut one "ring" off but as it actually was resting on it, I think both "rings" could be cut off. And leave that last rubberblock as bumpstop. (Or else, leaving very short free travel)

The Bilstein's have much longer cylinders than Fiat's. I'm surprised so many are riding around ON RUBBER SUSPENSION, complaining about harsh ride..

Still Mario, not as harsh as hitting a speed bump WITHOUT bumpstops of course!

Brilliant
So who has some bump stops they want to give me or sell to me?
I can pick them up this evening if its not far?

Also do you think i could have caused any damage to the shocks/top mounts? It only happend a few times...

The ones in marcos photo look like they will be the correct size considering the standard ones are cut down

Might be worth speaking to Joe at CC Mario. When he fitted the billie/eibachs to my le I think he mentioned the need for different bumpstops, which he sorted for me.

Not sure, but they might have been bilstein bumpstops.

Interesting point about the OEM bump-stops being cut down. I don't think mine were cut down by the garage.

I wasn't sure whether the ride quality was meant to be that hard, so I met up with a fellow Coop owner (OO7) who bought and fitted a Eibach/Billie set at the same time I did to see if the ride quality was the same on his car.... to which it was.

I shall have to find out whether Chris cut his bump stops, I think he might have got Motormech to fit his

edit:

Going through my Personal Messages, this is what Chris said:

Yes I got new Fiat rear bump stops fitted. Funny enough I was reading about some people trim the rear stops when fitting the Eibachs but ASAIK Motormech didn't do this.

However I'm not convinced this is a major problem as the rear feels as firm as the front when driving on 'normal' roads. The bump stop would only come into play if the car came down heavy on the shocks, like if you went over the crest of a hill and got a little air.

I'm starting to get used to it, or maybe it settling down. My main issue it the rattling form the interior which I think when fixed will oddly make the car feel a lot better as every shape jolt in the car wont be exaggerated by the sound of an explosion in the cab.

PM SENT



......you must have trashed them mate, i will swap them over with the knois tonight.
cant have you on buggered shocks...

Marco,

you really think the Shocks will have been trashed

no he is trying to be funny... and thus implying that i give him my new shocks!

Cheeky Git!

There was me feeling guilty that I sold them on and now they're trashed.

LMFAO!!

since when do i get taken serious on here LMFAO!!!

has the world stopped moving??

In this pic from the front suspension How To (fitting Koni inserts) you can see the combined bump stop and protective boot on the right These come as a single part from Fiat but the ePer drawing is misleading as it only shows what appears to be the boot.

I threw my boots/bumpstops out with the old OE shocks when I changed to FK coilovers, and if you want to experience a hard and crashy ride, wind the FK fronts right down and use the supplied FK metal top mounts With the bravo top mounts the ride is much improved, and winding the coilover up so the sump isn't dragging on the ground also helps But in the end the FK's seems to have shaken themselves to bits and I had lots of handling issues before I took them off and put billies/eibachs on.

I got some used bump stops from Joe78 but they came without the boots, however since the FK's had (thin) bump stops and no boots, I think the lack of boots contributed to their early demise, so I bought a pair of the OE boots with bump stops as per the pic. Just as well, since I originally was going to install the bump stops upside down (not sure it really matters though).

So, to echo the advice above, put the bump stops (and boots) on, and if you feel it necessary, chop out a section of the bump stops (I've not felt the urge to do this yet).

Again, unless you chop out sections you WILL be resting on them. (Eibach's + Billies)

Having driven a car with the billies/eibach solution I cannot think why anyone would ever see it as an improvement over a fresh OE set up. Crashy and with no better and less predicatble handling...one the road that is, track may be different.

I would be worried that i had just wrecked an expensive set of top mount bearings. The crashing may well have brinneled the bearing surface and this will affect the steering You may be Ok but maight be worth ckecking when you take the struts apart.

Can't see this being a drop link issue, as abpve it is the bump stop that will help.

The OE bump stops on standard suspension had very little signs of use or wear. I would not want to be subjecting my coupe, albeit taty, body shell to that sort of shock, just protected by 2 inches or rubber. Long term I sure it would get tired?

Thanks for the advice...
Im going to go over my options while at joes on saturday and decide what to do...

Fingers crossed the top mounts and bearings are ok

As I have said before, my suspension setup is OE and all replaced within the last 1000 miles and its the best coupe I've ever been in for on the road performance. And thats with budget tyres!!!

Hope you get it resolved Mario.

Ross

I will weigh out my options when i get to joe...

Im keeping the eibach springs, they arnt too low and were nice on my old setup. However it does seem the Billies are a bit soft which is causing the car to be even lower.

I will either stick with the set up and get the bump stops or swap the shocks out for either standards or Konis (as before)

The rear billies and eibachs can stay...

Will update with the results once im back from joes on saturday night

Mine has Eibach/Billies/cut stops/18" wheels, and it outhandles a std Coupe easily. The motorway comfort is peerless too.
The only times it's crashy is over potholes.

Im reluctant to get rid of them just yet per... As you said on a nice road and round twisties the car handles superbly...

Plus its not my everyday car so im really not fussed about comfort...

Per you have le lips on your car dont you... how low is it to the ground... I still think mine looks lower than it was before (see the pics above of how it is) Im probably just mistaken and 8 months of driving the stilo has clouded my mind

Fixed that for you. standard coupes handle fine!!

Ross

"Fine"... yes not necessarily better round a track... (depends on the contex and what application)

Lets not forget the coupe was designed as tourer/coupe not a track car

Coupe on New Std Suspension would be far more pleasant to drive than a Coupe on Eibachs / Billies / Konis / Coil overs etc etc.... whether or not it would out handle them on a track is another question... I would think probably not IMO

im going to slap you when i see you

any car can be a track car!!
you just need to know how to drive it like tis stolen!!

If you actually read and digest what i was saying...

A coupe, new out of the factory on its standard suspension isnt designed for a track its as i said a tourer/coupe road car.

Its only with the aid of modifications that you can improve it for track use.

Therefore it would probably be unlikely that the cars standard suspension would handle better on a track than modified suspension. Its the same the otherway round, the track suspension wouldnt be suited to use on an everyday road car (in most cases)

So now you will be getting the slap...

You're cheating Per! Sweden's roads are billiard table smooth compared with the rubbish we have to put up with in the UK

Mario, I don't know if this will help, but here's a photo of my coupe which has Eibachs - it gives you a bit of an idea in terms of the gap between the top of the tyre and the wheel arch - how does yours compare?

hard to tell with the angles



Doesnt look "too" different

Mario, feel free to hop in during one of the Grand Parades I've booked at Spa. A factory fresh suspension is much much better than you would think. I reckon however about 95% of Coupe owners are running around on tired suspension parts.

As above I agree, as I had FK's and 18's last time on my coupe and the difference is amazin!!

Ross

I guess it´s all about the lowered car look though...

And if you want a lowered car, the Billies/Eibach (ok maybe osrav/eibach) combo would be the best. I've been struggling to stay with the standard height, it´s just that the car looks like it´s on stilts at the Coupe meets... And I can't get it out of my head.

And frankly, if you want nice handling and good comfort, isn't the Bilstein and standard springs the way to go? I've not seen anyone complain on this setup...

Edit: Doing a search, reading old stuff about suspension setups and just starting to think that it´s not only the cars that are getting old and soft...? Reading stuff like: http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=186748&Searchpage=16&Main=14762&Words=%2Bsuspension+%2Bsetup&Search=true#Post186748

Opps, suddenlly I can't log on anymore, wonder why..?

And from what i've read, FK:s f**k up the ride completely.

Errrm.... NO brand new OE suspension will be good on track!
Will not last long, but would be good for a bit SO warm your cheek (S) up your getting a

Absolutely, don't argue with that at all.
But you haven't driven mine yet..


Well yes it's low. In Gothenburg the roads are BAD (almost UK std) which have made one crack a little. I just have to watch out.. And keep complaining to the City Council..


Maybe 10yrs ago. Not anymore and certainly not around poor old Gothenburg..

I reckon the best way to compare ride heights is to measure the height above ground of the top of the sills at the front and the rear, on level ground. With the old FK's I ended up at 28cm at the front (just behind the front wheels) and 29cm at the rear (just ahead of the rear wheels). With billies and eibachs on the front, the ride height looks similar but I've not measured it, I still have the FK's on the rear.

I was sure Bilstein sports had internal bump stops

Generally B6's were designed to work with STANDARD springs, it could be that the 20vt Eibachs are a bit too short and what you are hearing is the shock base hitting the underside of the top mount

I have bilsteins with 16vt Eibachs (Bit longer and different coil set up) Mine are firmer than standard but are not too hard and seem to offer a nice compromise. I have encountered crashing (very rarely) but this seems to be when hitting pot holes. Such pot holes have already destroyed two wheels on my Alfa

Sports suspension will be harder than standard and they will expose poor road surfaces. On the plus side when the roads are good the feedback and ride will be fantastic.

I had standard springs and Bilsteins, the latter now 5yrs (50k miles) old. Roger just changed the springs to Eibachs and put on new trackrods, droplinks and top-mounts.

Ride has gone from mega-crashy to compliant and bump/thud, much smoother overall, so well pleased.

The Billies don't have anything to do with ride height Mario, they only control the spring to stop it from becoming a pogo stick and just keep bouncing.

The bump stops should sort this out, something about 2" long should be fine.

I'd double check everything is put together correctly, it really shouldn't be happening.

we know what the issue is and in the process of sorting it out.

Is it a secret?

Classified information at the moment Jimbo until ive got a resolve on the issue, I.e not for public knowledge yet.

Great reading. Just redid my suspension and was thinking about doing Billies with standard springs. But ended but with Billies and 16VT springs in the end. Due the the clutch being changed the same time it took two weeks before I got my car back so it's not really a back-to-back comparison.

Compared with my previous standard suspension, I would say that it's now a little bit less sensitive to road imperfections. Somewhat crashier over bigger bumps but not substancially. Handling is much improved of course and it looks great!

I've had Eibachs on old standard shocks for over a year now and it outperforms the standard setup without doubt.
I tested it around the same sequence of corners on the same weekend with almost identical weather both days, standard springs first time and Eibachs second time, I used the same device to record the lateral Gs (Dynomaster on my Android phone) three times for each setup and then averaged the results, the Eibachs allowed me to pull more Gs consistently, and there was noticeably less body roll, my exit speed from the corner was also 5-10mph higher.
Obviously newer shocks would be better but new Eibachs and new OE shocks will outhandle new OE springs and shocks.

Just had my bilsteins and lowering springs fitted,along with rear arb upgrade and toyo t1r's
Wow what a difference.
Previously i had cobra lowering springs and standard shocks.Lots of buoyant bouncying when bowling along.Now the car seems planted,handles immense.

Handling is not just about cornering force and speed. For a road going coupe comfort and the ability to run on damaged roads must also be taken into account. Also stiffer the suspension the more shock transfered to other suspension components, which will wear quicker and degrade the ride faster.

So it's horses for courses. If you are tracking a acoupe i can see the benefits. However the standard fresh set up is a very good compromise for everyday driving IMHO.

I can now also confirm that the handling around corners and especially roundabouts is simply transformed (night and day change) by the lower springs

I'll second that, they made mine feel like a far faster car as soon as I put them on.
I've not noticed any problems with ride comfort on the Eibachs, they're a bit crashy I suppose, but nothing to worry about, it's only a bad ride on a road that'd be a bad ride on any suspension setup.
If ride comfort is the most important thing then maybe a Honda Civic is the best idea, my friend has one and it's very comfortable, slow as hell mind!
I get annoyed with people saying "don't change the springs, it'll get uncomfortable on very rare occasions".
If that was a dealbreaker then they wouldn't be posting in the handling section of the modifying area, they'd be buying a diesel Civic.

I was that man !!!
I refreshed everything including osrav adjustable shocks,camber bolts, braces (top and bottom)but I couldn't get the handling to be fun. I held out and held out then,after curborough last year. I gave in and fitted the 35mm drop springs from Joe CC.
Why oh why did i wait 14 years !!!
Better handling and a BETTER ride (some praise for the Osravs as well).
NICE

I can't disagree further from the comments above. Handling and comfort are 2 seperate things tbh. standard handling is sufficient for road use. Comfort on refreshed suspension is however!!

I had FK's with 100nm front springs and it handled amazing on smooth roads. Ran through wishbones every 12k.

Ross

Did some setts/cobblestone driving with the Bilstein/Eibach combo last weekend and it was decidedly less choppy than with the standard setup (65k miles old though).

Handling and comfort are not two separate things at all, they're two entirely connected things.
To increase handling you have to sacrifice comfort, to increase comfort you have to sacrifice handling.
Sometimes there's a "sweet spot" where you can have a good amount of both, but if you want more of one past that point you are going to have to sacrifice the other.

Having, within the past week, gone from a fully refreshed set up with bilsteins and eibachs, to a fully refreshed standard set up (And having just done a 460 mile drive in the latter) I think I can add to this.

The bilsteins/eibachs definitely handled better (Better turn in and the back end felt more planted) but I ended up steering around potholes and every imperfection on the road. The standard set up is still well damped but rides so much better.

It has 90% of the handling and 'chuckability' but offers way more useable roadholding on our current roads.

The only mod I will be doing is a whiteline 22mm rear anti-roll bar.

Are you sure? I reckon on a standard setup it would be quite "snappy" on enthusiastic driving.

Ross

Are you sure you cut the front/rear bumpstops..?

Yes to both.

It wasn't riding on the bump stops, it was just so much harsher.

I wouldn't fit them again (I like a firm ride - ooooerrr Misses! in a Frankie Howerd sort of way) they were just too choppy.

JonnyK has my Sprintie now and he commented that it handled brilliantly, it did, it was just too rough.

I think the full Eibach anti roll bar kit and standard dampers and springs would be very nice, reduced roll but a nice ride.

I'd agree with that entirely

I don't mind it tbh, though in fairness I had a completely stripped out 2.0 16v oldest shape clio 16v with solid engine mounts, so this is a walk in the park!

A bumpy park then...........!