I think I know the answer to this already but might as well ask....

If I fit an uprated front ARB do I "need" to fit an uprated rear ARB?

Obviously it would be best to but is there liable to be any negative effect of not doing so?

cheers


Paul

If anything, you want a rear ARB by itself rather than a front ARB.

The front ARB stifffens the front and, by itself, will make the car understeer more. The rear will, by itslef, make the car oversteer more.

Now given that the coop is a very front heavy car and suffers quite a bit from understeer, putting on a rear ARB by itself will improve handling quite a bit. Putting on a front ARB by itself would, most likely, be detrimental to handling of the car.

Had a feeling someone would say that

Balls! Ah well looks like I need to find an uprated rear ARB then

Thanks Truffle


Paul

my own personal experience (includes Spa) is that arb's are a great mod. i first added a "Nigel" lower brace and felt a little bit of improvement. i then added a whiteline arb which made it feel much more planted and flat, and i then added a dedra front arb - this combination ON MY CAR seems to work extremely well at eliminating any roll and also reduces lots of the usual understeer

do you have a link for the rear ones ?

what do you mean, a link? a website you mean?

aye

Nevermind......I'll find them

google balancemotorsport

cheers mate

yeah that's the one - you can get a 22mm one that pretty much fits straight on, or a 24mm one which apparently gives a fraction more stability but is a pain to fit. you have to fabricate new brackets for them. i'm VERY happy with my 22mm whiteline

oh, i paid about £125 i think

cheers Proccy,

I'm picking up Nigel's old dedra front ARB in a couple of weeks so just wanted to check if I needed the rear with it.

Looks like I know now, ah well whats another £125 or so (sigh) might give me the motivation to fit the solid rear bushes that've been sitting in the garage for the last year or so

Just so you know, dont go to the garage with a full petrol tank. Either the tank needs to be removed completely or sorta moved out of the way a bit to fit the rear ARB. So you want as little fuel in the car as possible.

garage? pah!

I'm a real man dotcha know

jack, axle stands, selection of tools and a sledge hammer for anything that wont co-operate

Cheers guys.
Just the sort of good information I always get here.
Thanks again,
Paul

So a good starting point is just the rear ARB?

Not just the front, either both, or if its going be just one, then the rear?

Cheers.

Rears seem the ones to go for.
That is the avenue I will be exploring.
Paul

lucky we are talking about roll bars!

What did you think I was talking about ?

another thing to strongly consider for all you suspension modders, is the sub-frame seam-welding that Joe at Countrycruising does. this further stiffens the front end aiding both turn-in and flatter cornering. i've not had it sone but i've heard it makes a significant difference

This thread may be of some use here.

It will certainly improve the feedback and possibly control of the front wheels but it can't make it flatter through corners, that's all done through springs and anti-roll bars.
I would recommend only fitting the rear bar if your just wanting to do the one bar or fitting the Eibach pair of anti-roll bars as these really do flatten her out through the bends.

cheers jmbo - i stand corrected but, as i said, i haven't had it done so was just going from what i thought i heard from Joe and Patch.

i can certainly confirm the effects good arb's have and uprated polybushes/suspension bits

Agreed - fitting my Novitec 23mm rear ARB was by far the most effective handling mod I've ever done

However, due to my lack of understanding of chassis dynamics at the time, I had fitted an uprated front ARB in isolation, which mucked up the turn-in. When I uprated the rear as well, the difference was amazing

Just for reference, for the new car, I've decided to transfer the uprated rear ARB, but I'm staying standard at the front

be interested in how you compare the standard front to your current set-up, after you've done a few miles.

Nigel...does the 23mm ARB fit in the standard brackets? I know the 22mm does whilst the 24mm requires modded brackets, interested to know the limit of what the standard brackets can accomodate.

Yes it does, the Novitec/Eibach rear bar is 23mm and she fits straight in.

although you have to muck around with the rear brake valve adjustment thingy, as the clamp isn't wide enough to go round the bigger diameter bar

That's how my car is set-up, and I personally find it handles very well. I regularly manage to keep up with 'good' handling cars on the track (e.g. Elises) ... although driver confidence has a lot to do with that, as well

Hmmm so after reading this thread I think I've been convinced that its a very worthwhile upgrade and it'd be rude not to while I've got the car in pieces!

My only dilemma is do I go for the £120 whiteline rear or save up some more pennies and get the full Eibach kit for £385?

Is it worth that much extra?

Is the Whiteline 24mm just 'stiffer' than the 22mm?

Also, I can't seem to find the Novitec 23mm of which you speak.

I'm looking to fit a rear ARB in the next few months.

every mm in a roll bar makes a lot of difference,some people have suggested 22mm on its own or 24mm with a front arb as the 24mm is too aggressive on its own.
22mm is alot easier to fit.

The Novitec ARB is made by Eibach. Novitec used to re-brand all of it's springs, suspension, ARB's with it's own name but it came fresh from the Eibach factory.

Just search out Eibach and your getting the same gear.

I have noticed that quite a lot of people undo one end of their front arb (on fwd car) for track days and in some circumstances they remove it completely when they upgrade to a coil over set up upfront.

Does anyone have any experience with either of the above?

Who? WTF

ARBs and sus do different jobs, they work together so you can't replace one with the other.

The only POSSIBLE benifit would be in torential rain.

If your going super stiff on the front springs with a coilover then the anti-roll bar will have little effect so can be removed.
Never heard of it on a coupe but would be interesting to see the result in respect to reducing understeer.

Thanks for clearing that up.

For information, I've heard that the standard rear ARB is 12mm. I'm sure plenty of people could confirm, but if true this might put things in perspective...

Wouldn't lift off oversteer be a problem? Mines all standard but is very easy to shift if provoked. Leighton has commented on the wayward behaviour of some of the cars he's mapped that have very aggressive front/ rear ratio ARB set-ups. Maybe the "super stiff front springs" counteract this?

You wouldn't drive a car with springs that firm on the road, it would be track work only.
The trouble with a very stiff anti-roll bar is that any movement on one wheel can make the other wheel move too.

Say for instance you're mid bend and your inside wheel hits a bump or a hole in the road, the movement of that wheel would be transfered through the stiff anti-roll bar to the outside wheel, that will make it feel very skittish.

What have you done about ARB's Jimbo?

I quite fancy just a 22mm rear ARB, no track or drag.

I've got the Eibach front and rear fitted to mine, works very well indeed.

I have the Dedra Integrale front bar & Whiteline 22mm rear bar - quite a neutral set up, pretty well balanced.

same here, but with Nigel's front lower brace added - feels very planted and safe around corners

I have eibach front and rear too.

I just checked on the Eibach site and it says the kit comes with a 22mm rear and 26mm front ARB. I thought they were both 22mm?

(Part number is E1013-320)

Chris

I'm running a standard front and a whiteline rear, 24mm i think and it's okay for me and i reckon i'm pushing on just a little bit.

"pushing on" as in still getting understeer?
What front and rear springs do you have?

No pushing on as in trying quite hard!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwFcP9wxMB0

what are your spring poundages, do you run the front higher then the rear?

Running 650 on the front and 550 on the rear at the moment but i am going to be running slicks soon so i will be running stiffer springs all round soon. I would say always run the front softer than the rear or you will just get lots of understeer. On the track i'm looking for the rear to be a bit loose which also helps with turn in but i can't say for the road.

As an aside i have a set of 650 rear springs that i will try whilst using the R888's and see what that does on it's own but it's all personal preference and how you drive that makes the difference.

Slight off subject: I assume youre NOT going use slicks at Time Attack, thought you had to use 'Toyo road tyres'

Might not even be doing the last round of Time Attack now after not scoring points at 3 out of the 4 rounds. I am looking at a couple of other options in racing categories as to be quite honest i'm missing racing.

But yes i wouldn't be using them for TA but if i get my gearbox out and it's not the clutch but the gearbox then i won't be out full stop until next year anyway.

Next year i will be racing i'd say.

Has anyone noticed less traction or more understeer with a front arb?

no. i have the standard top brace, nigel lower brace and a dedra arb - turns just fine

If you uprate JUST the front ARB, you will get more understeer

Sorry I did not explain,If you already have a rear bar!

oh, and how is your setup with just a rear bar,with no front bar now Nigel?

i should add i run a whiteline 22mm rear uprated arb

Seems fine, although I'm still running standard wheels and standard camber, so its not easy to tell yet

It certainly seems pointy enough though - just how I like it

Do you notice the extra body roll? or an increase in front end grip?

How thick is the Dedra Front ARB and from what type of Dedra is the best (thickest) one ?