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so near but yet so far?
#1073768
21/07/2010 19:39
21/07/2010 19:39
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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kidderminster
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well the time came today to finally put the key in the ignition and try and bring back to life my rebuilt 16vt........ But Nooooooooo! won't start! So so close to firing but never quite got there! BUGGER! More than one person has came to the conclusion its the cam timing, so going have to wait for the guy who actually rebuilt the lump to make an appearance monday to see if he can sort it! Regarding the timing.... I'm running columbo & bariani lancia delta 16v turbo Max fast road cams.... Surely they can get the relevant timing's off the C&B website and all will be hunky doory? or is it not that simple? Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: MattM]
#1073855
21/07/2010 21:32
21/07/2010 21:32
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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No mate that's not the case as he must have tried this at some point as he specificly said the valves Hit with the original fiat timing! would he have just tried to time it up by himself.... Is that even possible? the trouble is that the guy who built it never actually stripped it originally otherwise he would obviously Marked it up! really frustrating..... Was hoping to get it back, run in and flea mapped all in time to go watch Nigel at TOTB..... Don't really wanna drive my work van there Lol..... Still do-able i suppose?! Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1073857
21/07/2010 21:41
21/07/2010 21:41
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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Do you have a widget or anything of the like? If your lucky it may just be a timing sensor is off.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1073898
21/07/2010 22:16
21/07/2010 22:16
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bravoturbo
Unregistered
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bravoturbo
Unregistered
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C&B Maximum fast road cams shouldn't have been a problem timed up using the original timing marks.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1074027
22/07/2010 07:45
22/07/2010 07:45
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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Really? God knows what's he's done then....... really hope its good news when i ring up on monday? if not...... It maybe engine out again! Beautiful.... F###ing beautiful! Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1074068
22/07/2010 09:43
22/07/2010 09:43
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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i would get them to show you that its sparking and there is fuel coming out.
i know it sounds mad but may be a you tube clip of what the car is doing on turn over may help people get the right idea of whats going on..
i have no clue about timing the C&B cams up... fingers crossed you can get it sorted.
why not down load barnacles software and buy the leads off ebay and check for fault??
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1074088
22/07/2010 09:53
22/07/2010 09:53
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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mate, you must be going mad.
also, get them to check every thing again.
fingers crossed its just some thing stupid like a sensor.
most people jump conclusions...like the cams, becasue there hard to time up and they had to fiddle with them they instantly think thats the problem!!
good luck!
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1074365
22/07/2010 17:11
22/07/2010 17:11
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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From the C&B site if you look.
HOW SHALL YOUR CAMSHAFTS BE FITTED? Colombo & Bariani camshafts can be fitted utilizing exactly the original reference marks.For inlet camshafts with phase variator specific fitting instructions are included in the kit. They might be 180* out?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1075042
23/07/2010 17:10
23/07/2010 17:10
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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100% sure you have the coil connection on the right coil, swap them round and give it another try just in case.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1075074
23/07/2010 18:49
23/07/2010 18:49
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tom_snelling
Unregistered
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tom_snelling
Unregistered
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I doubt its that, I did that to my 16VT before and the engine ran fine, started perfectly. Just went into limp mode with a 4k rpm limiter.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1076430
26/07/2010 21:23
26/07/2010 21:23
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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Good man Nick, all sounds positive now at least
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1076433
26/07/2010 21:32
26/07/2010 21:32
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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Yeah seems a little more positive.... Can't to hear her up and running properly! Been COOPLESS for nearly a year now! Mind you it was longer than that the first time it was rebuilt! Infact....... I've just realised in all the time I've owned it it's been off the road more than on...... nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1076437
26/07/2010 21:38
26/07/2010 21:38
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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But soon it will all be worth it. Good too hear you/they have found the problem.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1080557
03/08/2010 19:54
03/08/2010 19:54
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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well she breathed today..... heard her fired up for the first time.... sound rough at mo though as downpipe is severely blowing... flange needs re-welding at slight different angle! there is one thing that is baffleing the garage though.. since fitting new cam phase sensor engine will not turn over with it connected? Strangely though it WILL fire with cam sensor disconnected?? there is very slight misfire on revving also but revs come down very smoothly... could this be due to old fuel.... fuel is probably about 6 months old! To eliminate this i plan to drain fuel tommorrow and Get a clean tank of fuel and was thinking of putting some injector cleaner in there, will this be ok? The cam sensor thing is baffleing though, do we think it needs adjusting i.e twisting slightly or could dirty fuel be the main problem? (SOOOOOOOO CLOSE) Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1084879
11/08/2010 20:29
11/08/2010 20:29
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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could having the cam sensor disconnected on start up put the car into 'limp mode'.....? desperately need some answers peeps! nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1085670
13/08/2010 01:02
13/08/2010 01:02
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
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Having the cam sensor disconnected doesn't seem to put it into limp mode. I once drove around for a couple of days without realising I'd disconnected it! The only difference was the car was very hard to start. That fact that you say the car revs well after 2000 rpm makes me think it's more likely an ignition fault then a fuel fault. Do all of these things in order and tell me what happened after each one. >Pull all four plugs. Are they all black or just one? Just one points to an injector fault. All four more likely fueling fault, or ignition fault. Before you refit them clean them or they won't spark properly and exacerbate the problem. Any difference? >Replace all four HT leads with new ones. Just any that fit for now. >Disconnect the battery negative terminal and then the ecu connector. When you reconnect them the fuel trims will be reset. Any difference? (TBH, if you've had the engine out for months, the fuel trim should already be reset) >Disconnect the green plug from the lambda sensor. Again any difference with it disconnected? >Can you get a gauge on there to check fuel pressure? What FPR do you have, is it an adjustable one? >I left these till last because you'll probably have to order these and wait for them to come: >Try a new coil pack and new, er, ignition 'thingie' I can't remember what it's called! The thing with the two connector that sits in front of the battery. BTW I hope you aren't paying your garage much, These are just basic fuel/ignition system checks. Your garage should have bloody checked these things themselves No offence to you at all. This is what you pay them for.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1085712
13/08/2010 08:43
13/08/2010 08:43
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
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NP, mate.
It will be reset to what Flea set them at. Over time the ecu 'adjusts' itself. Unplugging the ecu would reset any adjustments made due to, say, a faulty lambda sensor. It doubt it's that, but it's easy to rule out.
As for the fuel pump earth. That's weird, how did the pump run if one side of the wiring wasn't connected?! If the electrical current was previously finding it's way to earth via some other dodgy means, now that it has a proper earth that would make huge difference to the fuel flow. If the car was mapped with the dodgy wiring, the fuel map will now be junk.
Still do all the other checks I mentioned, but bear that in mind.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1098201
08/09/2010 07:41
08/09/2010 07:41
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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yes all you need is some cables and barnacles startreck software probably in the faq for the widget
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1098247
08/09/2010 09:39
08/09/2010 09:39
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568 Berlin
barnacle
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
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Nick, in response to your PM (and please note I've not been across the full thread in detail) here's a few thoughts...
First, the widget or startrek software will tell you if there are faulty sensors, or things like software learning modes at their limits, and will give you running data once it's started.
Obviously with an engine rebuild, it's hard to be sure something hasn't been put back together incorrectly, but it looks as if you've done all the obvious checks.
Rich at low revs, poor starting, and failure to idle suggests one of two things - either more fuel is arriving than the ECU is sending, or the ECU thinks there's more air arriving than really is.
If there's a leak in the air system (post throttle) then it would normally go lean as it sucks air in against manifold vacuum - though it *could* be a blocked MAP sensor pipe. Or, it could be a MAP sensor which is disconnected from the pipe in which case it would think the air is too high pressure at idle, but lean on boost. Or a dead or dodgy MAP sensor... that last will show on startrek as you can monitor the air pressure. Should be ~1000mb ignition on engine off, ~3-400 at idle, up to ~2100 on boost.
Alternatively, assuming that the engine was correctly mapped prior to the rebuild with the current injectors and fuel pressure regulator, then it's possible that one injector has failed in the stuck open position. Startrek can't tell you anything about that on a 16; the ECU doesn't monitor the injectors. You *may* be able to get a stethoscope in there to confirm that all four are ticking.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1098258
08/09/2010 09:58
08/09/2010 09:58
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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one other thing..... When they were first trying to start the car someone spotted that the earth cable from my fuel pump with live feed was not connected....(I can only assume its been like that for a while?) Although it seemed the pump was still priming..... Would this in some way INCREASED the flow of the pump now its been Earthed properly?
Nick
Hi Nick, reading this, have you connected the earth again?? have you tried running it with it disconnected and connected? with the earth connected it will increase the flow massivley!! i think you need to go with Neil on this and get the star trek system on to it and see what problems there are... wild one...not sre if this is going to help in ANY way...but have to tried putting the standard chip back in to see if it runs any better?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1098317
08/09/2010 11:24
08/09/2010 11:24
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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injectors are 630's as apposed to standard 384's.... Alittle bigger.... sorry...im trying to pack for holiday and im losing the plot a bit (Barnacle you know what i mean) try the earth mate, i hope it stops running so rich!
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: barnacle]
#1098463
08/09/2010 15:41
08/09/2010 15:41
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
My life on the forum
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Hi Nick. I don't think I mentioned it to you but I asked the garage to test a few things on the MAP sensor for the same reason that Barnacle mentioned. I'll give you a shout when the get back to me with the results.
I might have to give them a bit of a kick up the bum tomorrow if they don't get back to me by the end of the day!
Last edited by kj16v; 08/09/2010 15:42.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1111627
05/10/2010 21:00
05/10/2010 21:00
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Mate, this is dragging on now, you must be getting well hissed off! Cant you just go and leave it with Rog at Poweritalia or Flea at FC Performance for a few weeks and let them sort it? Something isnt right somewhere, obviously, and I know you know that, but im sorry I cant help directly, just an idea above. Anyhow, good luck, let us know when it is up and running, maybe with a vid too.
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: technics]
#1111907
06/10/2010 12:23
06/10/2010 12:23
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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tested map sensor by checking voltage while sucking on hose and Voltage dropped from 1.8 down to 1.2..... does this sound about right???? i'm hoping not.... lol! That does sound right, as when you go onto boost, the voltage will go up, but i have no idea if the value is correct for doing so
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1113101
08/10/2010 13:56
08/10/2010 13:56
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
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London
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someone has advised me to check the right connectors are on the right sensors.... I.e cam sensor and say idle control valve as they have same connectors?
also would a dodgy lamda sensor cause the problems i'm having?
nick Just PM'd you back. No the lambda sensor won't be the cause of your problems.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1151361
04/01/2011 10:35
04/01/2011 10:35
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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so it looks like your timing is out!
do you not have C&B cams in this? (i have heard they are a b*tch to time up)
if its a case of a mis-timed engine it should be an easy fix!
fingers crossed for you mate!
Last edited by Marco20valveT; 04/01/2011 10:36.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Genic]
#1151530
04/01/2011 15:25
04/01/2011 15:25
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them. Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1151547
04/01/2011 16:11
04/01/2011 16:11
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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so Nick, why not just bite the bulit and get some one to time the engine up?
all this wasted time and money when its a case of timing...
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1151550
04/01/2011 16:17
04/01/2011 16:17
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tom_snelling
Unregistered
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tom_snelling
Unregistered
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I had the same problem as you with the cam sensor Nick, it was the plugs to the coils being the wrong way round. It would only run with the cam sensor unplugged, I swapped the coil plugs (from the loom) round and the problem was solved. Youve probably also got a 4k RPM limiter in place as well, but sounds like you havent made 4k rpm yet! Hope this helps.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Begbie]
#1151613
04/01/2011 19:28
04/01/2011 19:28
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Thier not set at TDC Begbie, I thought I had a nice photo of a pair of cams fitted up but can't find it unfortunatly.
Why the hell do you need permision to take off your OWN cam cover ??
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1151615
04/01/2011 19:50
04/01/2011 19:50
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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because i'd been warned on more than one occasion that if anything todo with timing was tampered with by anyone other than the engine builder my guarantee on the engine would be invalid....! anyways the position the cams are in if we look at it like the points of the cams are hands on clock are: inlet points to 7-8 mins..... Therfore the exhaust cam should point to 52-53 mins... But its more like 48-49.... hope this makes sense... Lol nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1151628
04/01/2011 20:19
04/01/2011 20:19
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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They don't always have to be perfectly symetrical (you can't tell much just by looking anyway), it depends on the FL timing from the cam manufacture some are 110/115 some are 108/108 etc. Ask your engine builder what it should be, if he does'nt know then something is wrong !
Have you done compression checks ? I know it's a new engine but you should see some similarity between pots
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1151644
04/01/2011 20:52
04/01/2011 20:52
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Yeah well yeah in theory A few degrees here and there is'nt going to stop it running anyhow. Are the cams timed on the correct crankshaft revolution ie; not 180 deg out ?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1151656
04/01/2011 21:10
04/01/2011 21:10
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,618 Oswestry
Genic
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Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them. Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/ WTF? whats with the arsey comment, was only trying to help the guy FFS.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Genic]
#1151665
04/01/2011 21:21
04/01/2011 21:21
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Oh yeah I see, one step ahead as usual Nik ! It's quite easy to get wrong if your not familiar with the 16v, especially if youv'e got adjustable pullys fitted.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Genic]
#1151668
04/01/2011 21:35
04/01/2011 21:35
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them. Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/ WTF? whats with the arsey comment, was only trying to help the guy FFS. Take it how you like but thats the reality of that place sorry you are sensitive. Nick can you just take a photo of it? It would help if number 1 cylinder was at top dead centre, that is when the big pulley on the end of the crank with its small notch in the outside is in line with the 20mm or so line on the crank cover – you can only see this with the inspection panel removed in the wheel arch. If this is all too much then whoever built your engine will have to confirm its not peculiar to the fiat most engines are the same so if he’s worth his salt then he’d be able to easily confirm if its right. The fact is runs at all make me think its in the ball park and a sensor might be the issue – maybe the cabling to the sensors they are easily damaged and the wires can be damaged, to run it only needs fuel, spark, compression, crank sensor, throttle sensor and cam sensor. I assume you changed round the spark leads on the coil pack to rule that out (normally it wont run at all). The car only knows where TDC is via the cam sensor in combination with crank wheel.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1151680
04/01/2011 22:00
04/01/2011 22:00
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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actually nick I just re-read this saga, have you got the std injectors still, it sounds like its too righ which will foul the plugs and when they are wet with fuel they won't spark intead the current is bled to ground. If the cam timing was wildly out you'd get back fires in the inlet or exhaust. I'd shove the old injectors in to rule out the rich issue to an extent.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1151687
04/01/2011 22:20
04/01/2011 22:20
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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OP
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'The Saga'..... Lol! it has been backfiring/popping.... At lower revs! I really really really hope it the cam timing.... Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1151689
04/01/2011 22:31
04/01/2011 22:31
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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ok, as long as it hasn't bent the valves you should come out of this ok - easily checked with a compression test, whens this chap coming to see it?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Genic]
#1151719
04/01/2011 23:31
04/01/2011 23:31
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them. Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/ WTF? whats with the arsey comment, was only trying to help the guy FFS. Tanc's might not be as well organised as they might be (breaks my heart to think of the stuff lying out in the elements) but they do most definately know their way round the 16v engine, guys there doing it day in day out. Not sure why Richard is dissing them ...
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Genic]
#1152208
05/01/2011 21:24
05/01/2011 21:24
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Because Nik due to a fundemental argument regarding incorrect information supplied by Barrett to someone who used to come on this forum. Horses for courses, might be alright for Nick, but I'd expect no such mistakes from someone claiming to be an expert (I'm sure you can understand that point of view Nik). Could be some element of hear say, but I had to prove the info given wrong and it was fundementally wrong. I'd not go there.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1152268
05/01/2011 22:38
05/01/2011 22:38
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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:)I don't know the nature of the misinfomation but I catch your drift, nobody is perfect though, mistakes can happen.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1152323
06/01/2011 01:27
06/01/2011 01:27
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fcck2000
Unregistered
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fcck2000
Unregistered
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Nick, If you have standard pullies then it's a simple job to set the engine at TDC and also check cam timing without taking the rocker cover off. My guess after reading this thread is that your engine builder has put the exhause pulley on the inlet cam and visa versa. Can you see the marks on the rear of each pulley when looking through the instection holes when the sparkplug cover is removed and the engine is at TDC? To check the engine is timed correctly should take 5 mins, only things to remove are spark plug cover and a sparkplug. Paul
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1152729
06/01/2011 19:10
06/01/2011 19:10
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
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Paul thats what I was thinking - but do both cams have the drive for the cam phase sensor? Or maybe the cam sensor isnt spinning without a drive?? - I cant remember if thats possible as I removed the distributor on my 16v.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1152867
06/01/2011 23:37
06/01/2011 23:37
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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the cams are in if we look at it like the points of the cams are hands on clock are: inlet points to 7-8 mins..... Therfore the exhaust cam should point to 52-53 mins... But its more like 48-49.... hope this makes sense... Lol nick By my reckoning (by calculation), at TDC on the inlet stroke and timed at 110 degrees and using your clockface notation, the inlet cam should be between 5 and 6 minutes past and the the exhaust cam at 43 minutes past. Each minute away from that will be 12 degrees out. So it looks like the inlet cam COULD be 50 degrees or more advanced than it should be and the exhaust cam 72 degrees advanced. If this is the case (which may be down to the pulleys being on the wrong cams) I am sure that any cam signal would be so far out timing wise that the ECU would not be able to use it.
Last edited by group5lancia; 07/01/2011 09:40.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1152895
07/01/2011 00:36
07/01/2011 00:36
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tricky
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tricky
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Gee, how can you tell all that
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1153142
07/01/2011 14:08
07/01/2011 14:08
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I'm sure I did the maths wrong late last night - and maybe messed it up again this morning, so I'll go through it here and maybe someone can spot a mistake.....
At TDC the inlet cam should be 55 (cam) degrees before full lift and the exhaust cam should be 55 (cam) degrees after full lift. On a clock face this would be approximately 9.2 minutes after the hour for the inlet cam and 39.2 minutes after the hour for the exhaust cam.
But each valve is inclined at 23 degrees, so looking at the cams from the front, the 'clock face' on the inlet cam needs to be rotated 23 degrees clockwise and the 'clock face' on the exhaust cam needs to be rotated 23 degrees anti-clockwise.
Turning the inlet cam clock face 23 degrees is the same as subtracting 3.8 minutes from the 'time' and a similar number of minutes would need to be added to the exhaust cam 'time'. That's how I arrived at 5(.333) minutes past and 43 minutes past
Last night I turned the clock faces the wrong way in my head (inlet cam anti-clockwise and exhaust cam clockwise) which gave, what I now think, was the wrong numbers.
I don't think the engine would run at all if the cam timing was as far out as I calculated last night, which is what made me look at it again!
Last edited by group5lancia; 07/01/2011 14:23.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1153200
07/01/2011 16:33
07/01/2011 16:33
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Nope, I'm wrong again above! (But I was right last night!)
55 degrees before full lift on the inlet cam would mean the cam would be 9.2 minutes before the half hour on a clock face referenced to the inlet valve, not after mid day!
Adjusted by the 23 degrees/3.8 minutes to allow for the valve angle would mean the inlet cam would be at 17 minutes past the hour. The exhaust cam would still be at 43 minutes past the hour.
I think it's staggering that your engine runs at all with the inlet cam apparently so many degrees retarded!
Last edited by group5lancia; 07/01/2011 17:06.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1153324
07/01/2011 18:54
07/01/2011 18:54
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Pictures might help eh, With pistons 1+4 at TDC (referenced by the marks on the bottom belt pully) you need to take off the crank front pullys to see it, the marks on the large outer pully that align with the belt cover or whatever are not at true tdc. In the picture below is where the camshafts should point to, when the crank is lined up (roughly, these ones are timed at 115 deg not that you can tell exactly by looking) This is on No. 1 cylinder looking towards the back of the pullys from gearbox side. If you have the cam pullys on the wrong way round, the cams will point in more or less opposite directions and this will put you 180 deg out of sync.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1153332
07/01/2011 19:10
07/01/2011 19:10
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Tricky the notch on the harmonic balancer lines up fully with the long mark on the cam cover I check that. Its only compounded by the confusion of the 2 smaller marks. For a quick check they should be sufficient (its not as good as a real firm line on under I know but that involves taking the Alt and PAs belt away), but I'm not sure Nick will be able to do this at the moment? The balancer Nick on the end of the crank can only fit on one way - assuming the bolts have not been forced in. Tricky's picture shows you what you need to know.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1153352
07/01/2011 19:32
07/01/2011 19:32
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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well those cams are pointing pretty much the complete opposite to mine.... So that pretty much comfirms my cam pulley wheels are the wrong way round! NUMPTY'S!!! nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1153379
07/01/2011 19:59
07/01/2011 19:59
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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If that is the case right now, with both the crank and the cam marks lined up.
Don't take the belt off and move any of the shafts, best to turn the whole engine untill the actual cams lobes are pointing like the picture, take off the belt, turn the crank only about 90 deg, swap the pullys over and line up the cam marks acuratley, then bring the crank back to it's tdc mark. Then fit belt, this will eliminate any valves clashing or piston hitting valves. Good luck
Last edited by tricky; 07/01/2011 19:59.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1153399
07/01/2011 20:20
07/01/2011 20:20
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tricky
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tricky
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Hopefully, just be carefull.
What other mods have you done then ?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1153476
07/01/2011 22:06
07/01/2011 22:06
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
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All being well, I'm sure it'll reach that target in your sig easily.
That is a rare exhaust housing, it's a turbo technics casting. Good choice, I had one of them sitting around not so long ago.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1153478
07/01/2011 22:19
07/01/2011 22:19
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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yeah kept my eye out for the exhaust housing for a while.... Although spool was awesome with original its been found by a good few tobe restrictive after 5500 revs.... Hopefully now i'll keep making power all the way to 7200 with the help of the the boost also holding alot better.... Really tailed off with my t3 super 60... Don't think the hole in it helped though!? i also think it should easily reach that target but i ain't counting my chickens (or horses) just yet!... nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1155199
11/01/2011 19:24
11/01/2011 19:24
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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so it seems my exhaust cam is out by between 20-25 degrees... would this explain the way it was running? well anyway should be sorted by the end of sat so fingers crossed it runs ok... If not, keep an eye out for it in the "i'm breaking my coupe" section! Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1155220
11/01/2011 20:00
11/01/2011 20:00
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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so it seems my exhaust cam is out by between 20-25 degrees... would this explain the way it was running?Nick Much further out than that! In your post #1151615 you said the inlet cam was at 7-8 mins past the hour and the exhaust cam 48-49 minutes past the hour, using the clockface notation Each minute out on the clockface notation is 12 crank degrees. So if the inlet cam should be a 17 minutes past, the inlet cam could be out by 17-8= 9 minutes which equals an error of 108 degrees. If the exhaust cam should be at 43 minutes past the exhaust cam is out by 49-43=6 minutes which is an error of 72 crank degrees. 108 + 72 = 180 degrees, which is what suggests (to me) that the cam wheels being on the wrong camshafts. p.s. If you do have a T38 turbo then it is good for over 460 BHP. In fact I have seen dyno figures sent to me by Turbo Technics of an Evo producing 583 BHP @ 6948 rpm with one of their T38s (Stage 3 TT S205).
Last edited by group5lancia; 11/01/2011 20:07.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1155303
11/01/2011 22:18
11/01/2011 22:18
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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if you think about it though (explained to me yesterday) if the crank is turned over once more from my original observation the the cams would have turned half a turn therefore being not that far out (pointing roughly in the right direction) so now the inlet is at approx 37-38 .... And the exhaust at 17-18 (but should be at 22-23..... So that would be a difference of 5 mins, if each minute equals 6 degrees then approx 30 degrees out...... (each minute equals 6 ddegress NOT 12... I think?) lol regarding turbo, it not a turbo technics t38, that's a rollerbearing isn't it? Me and saint have been having a running debate as to what my turbo actually is..... The turbo guy who built it used to run the exact one on his hill climb integrale but swapped to a gt2871r as he was given it to try by an american turbo company.... He did say that my turbo would make more peak power than the gt2871r....? We'll see.
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1155309
11/01/2011 22:28
11/01/2011 22:28
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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if you think about it though (explained to me yesterday) if the crank is turned over once more from my original observation the the cams would have turned half a turn therefore being not that far out (pointing roughly in the right direction) so now the inlet is at approx 37-38 .... And the exhaust at 17-18 (but should be at 22-23..... So that would be a difference of 5 mins, Great Reasoning - except that the engine position has changed by 360 degrees! After 360 crank degrees/180 cam degrees the inlet should be 47 minutes after the hour and exhaust 13 minutes after the hour - you can't 'lose' the problem as easily as that! if each minute equals 6 degrees then approx 30 degrees out...... (each minute equals 6 ddegress NOT 12... I think?) lol 6 cam degrees, yes. But 6 cam degrees = 12 crank degrees - and all cam timing numbers are given in terms of crank degrees! regarding turbo, it not a turbo technics t38, that's a rollerbearing isn't it? Me and saint have been having a running debate as to what my turbo actually is..... The turbo guy who built it used to run the exact one on his hill climb integrale but swapped to a gt2871r as he was given it to try by an american turbo company.... He did say that my turbo would make more peak power than the gt2871r....? We'll see. A Turbo Technics T38 has a 73mm diameter compressor wheel and is 60 trim. It can be built with a ball bearing or plain bearing CHRA
Last edited by group5lancia; 11/01/2011 22:37.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1155318
11/01/2011 22:51
11/01/2011 22:51
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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60 crank degrees out it is then! Think i remember my compressor wheel being very close in size to a gt3071 interms of inducer and exducer.... Think mine are 70mm & 51mm where as the gt3071 is 71mm & 52mm Irc?? The gt turbos are newer tech though and alot more efficient than my big old journal bearing cossie turbo!
nick Closest (Garrett) compressor wheel I know to that is 69.85mm/51.65mm 54 trim T04B. Does it have 8 blades?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1155327
11/01/2011 23:15
11/01/2011 23:15
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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It's a pretty odd-ball compressor wheel. I think it might be a T04B T5/T6 trim - and I can't find a compressor map for it. I think you need to Google!
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1155413
12/01/2011 09:42
12/01/2011 09:42
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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right found some specs for my turbo but still no idea of what it is or capable of? Lol compressor wheel 71mm (7 blades) exhaust wheel 53mm (11 blades) M11 compressor housing with 2.5" inlet 55 a/r exhaust housing! confused.com Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1155415
12/01/2011 09:56
12/01/2011 09:56
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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What size is the inducer on the compressor wheel?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Saint]
#1155420
12/01/2011 10:14
12/01/2011 10:14
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Marco20valveT
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Nick, when is your "engine builder" coming to sort his mess out? as you know know the problem, cant you get him over asap? at this rate...Begbie might be finished before you! NAR...
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Saint]
#1155434
12/01/2011 10:45
12/01/2011 10:45
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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fingers crossed for you mate!
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1155436
12/01/2011 10:51
12/01/2011 10:51
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Begbie might be finished before you! Incoming text message
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Begbie]
#1155445
12/01/2011 11:08
12/01/2011 11:08
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Marco20valveT
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1155509
12/01/2011 13:43
12/01/2011 13:43
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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think i got confused.... not sure of exhaust wheel size, has 11 blades though!... inducer and exducer are 71 & 53 respectively!
marco: engine SHOULD be running saturday! Wahoo!!
nick It sounds like a stock GT28 exhaust turbine and a 71mm 56 trim compressor - so it's like a GT2871 but with journal bearings rather than ball bearings in the middle. Don't rely on this, but I've read that the exhaust turbine becomes restrictive due to its size/number of blades, so although the compressor is good for 475BHP (I've read) you won't get there because the turbine side will choke before you do. Possibly why your mate got shot of it?
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Saint]
#1155708
12/01/2011 21:26
12/01/2011 21:26
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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It's a T3 flange, not T28, and T3 .55, thanks why I don't think GT28 turbine - I have never worked with T28 turbines but aren't they alot smaller and won't fit in a T3 flanged snail According to this http://www.jdmperformance.co.uk/item_detail.php?prodID=53005a T28 turbine can be fitted (with machining) to a T3 housing. If so, 400 wheel horse power potential! I cannot find a T3 turbine smaller than 2.32" (58.928mm) diameter.
Last edited by group5lancia; 12/01/2011 21:28.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Saint]
#1155750
12/01/2011 22:52
12/01/2011 22:52
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Nick said above 53mm diameter and 11 blades, so maybe T25/T28 turbine shaft 435922-1?
Inducer = 53mm Exducer = 41.7mm Blades = 11
I agree that the .55 A/R housing is most likely from a Cosworth/Garrett T34...
I have a T35 and I'm pretty sure the standard T34/T35 turbine wheel is 58.9mm/2.32 inches
Last edited by group5lancia; 12/01/2011 23:26.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1156710
15/01/2011 00:01
15/01/2011 00:01
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Well I never
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1156814
15/01/2011 12:17
15/01/2011 12:17
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Congrats mate! Glad you sorted it!!
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1156866
15/01/2011 14:28
15/01/2011 14:28
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1157305
16/01/2011 17:58
16/01/2011 17:58
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Well done mate, bet your chuffed, been following this thread for so long, and finally your there. Look forward to seeing some results after Flea has had his hands on it!
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: technics]
#1157334
16/01/2011 19:15
16/01/2011 19:15
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
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kidderminster
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Cheers buddy..... If the funds were there it would be with flea within the week, more likely to be 2-3 weeks though as I firstly have to MOT, tax and insure! With a bit of luck I will be pretty close to you in the DYNO league.. Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1157423
16/01/2011 21:54
16/01/2011 21:54
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tricky
Unregistered
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tricky
Unregistered
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Long live the 16v
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1157555
17/01/2011 08:40
17/01/2011 08:40
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
Unregistered
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well done Nick!
[says me after 13 months without the coupe for a second time, just picked her up and running in new piston rings...]
V
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: ]
#1157590
17/01/2011 10:35
17/01/2011 10:35
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Well done Nick. Glad you got it sorted - and a lucky escape that by having the cam wheels wrong way round hasn't broken anything. Then again I suppose the engine builder should have turned the engine over by hand to make sure the valves & pistons wouldn't clash.
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: Flea]
#1157663
17/01/2011 13:19
17/01/2011 13:19
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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get some pics up of your turbo with as many specs as you can,writing on the turbo etc,i should be able to get it id'd for you
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Re: so near but yet so far?
[Re: nick_d]
#1157908
17/01/2011 21:23
17/01/2011 21:23
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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as a general rule of thumb from what you have posted so far though,you will have a bang on turbo for in the region of 380-400bhp with good spool up going from the .55 housing (t38 is usually a modified t34) and the bigger front end.the rear housing will hold it back a little on big bhp numbers but will give greater spool,not seen a .55 t38 before,shouldnt surge but will be proper punchy.if you DO start getting surge,id recommend the .63 housing. but more details from yourself and ill try to get the exact specs as several companies make them,some are better than others.
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