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Re: Calling all plumbers advice and opinion required
[Re: H_R]
#1628624
15/01/2019 06:32
15/01/2019 06:32
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852 Cambridge & Cotswolds
MeanRedSpider
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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Are you happy with the flow rates mainly concerned about showers as that is what is predominantly used
Thanks for replying
Yes - I’m very happy. My pressure is set at a shade over 2 bar for the system (the cold feed is restricted which balances the hot) and, with that system pressure, my piping and the mains pressure, the system works fine. I get a tiny (barely noticeable - slight change in tone rather than flow) drop in shower pressure when another tap is run. There’s no change in temp despite my shower not being thermostatic. I’m very happy with it.
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Re: Calling all plumbers advice and opinion required
[Re: Possum]
#1628647
15/01/2019 16:41
15/01/2019 16:41
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,650 Dark side of the Moon
H_R
OP
My life on the forum
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OP
My life on the forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,650
Dark side of the Moon
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Am I'm glad that I live in the sub-tropics when I read about all the issues that you lot have.
All we have is an externally mounted mains pressure 250 litre electric hot water system that is powered by "off peak" electricity i.e. it only heats up in the early hours of the morning, and we pay a lower tariff for this. If only it was that simple here lol
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Re: Calling all plumbers advice and opinion required
[Re: H_R]
#1628652
15/01/2019 20:24
15/01/2019 20:24
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 621 Spain
avtokrator
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 621
Spain
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Well...,while I’m not 100% sure if I understand your system arrangement, and not being strictly professional plumber, what you have now is heat exchanger tank I suppose...Why just don’t put one upstairs, with sufficient internal serpentine power dissipation capacity, they come well insulated and with 20+ years service life nowadays. On the other hand the non-vented tanks are essentially expansion vessels for the heating circuit, not the hot water tap circuit. Are there differences so big between the systems we use here or m’I getting lost... About the combi boiler option, the hot water output power directly depends on the the actual boiler heating power, they often came with the option to choose model with bigger internal heat exchanger tank, typically 100-150L, contrary to the 5-10L standard tank. And this is an option to avoid the additional loft tank. Programming it to maintain slightly lower than the heating circuit temperature gives you vast amount of bath-usable hot water yet taking advantage of the extra residual heat when the burner shuts-off. You have/want something like this: ? conventional
Last edited by avtokrator; 15/01/2019 20:29. Reason: Pic added
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Re: Calling all plumbers advice and opinion required
[Re: avtokrator]
#1628658
15/01/2019 22:51
15/01/2019 22:51
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,650 Dark side of the Moon
H_R
OP
My life on the forum
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OP
My life on the forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,650
Dark side of the Moon
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Yes thats what i have, its about getting rid of some elements of the system to free up space The combi boiler creates hot water on demand and heats radiators to heat the house The unvented system im thinking of installing removes the need for the tanks in the loft space ( the blue bits in the diagram you shared) so i can then put the hot water tank in the place of the blue parts something like this unvented conventional vented system is the diagram you shared this is what i currently have and it all needs updating hence looking to change for unvented to free up space in loft to then place new tank in loft leaving me with an empty cupboard that i can use to make a room bigger The combi is the other option and this gets rid of the loft tanks and the storage tank ... again freeing up a cupboard space for me to use I hope that makes some sort of sense My parents who are in Spain just have a combi boiler running off a gas bottle and a log burner i have never seen any other type of system in Spain or Sicily but i know they will exist perhaps with a different name
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Re: Calling all plumbers advice and opinion required
[Re: H_R]
#1628668
16/01/2019 15:27
16/01/2019 15:27
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,244 Watford, Herts.
Hyperlink
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,244
Watford, Herts.
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Thanks for the info Hyperlink, I really need to have it all in the loft, can they be mounted in the loft I.e don’t need to be in a warm house, the tank would have to be a horizontal version due to space and ease of location I assume these perform no differently to a vertical version
Thanks again I guess they can be installed in the loft (mine arent) but as suggested they are something you want to check time to time. The CH side will have an expansion vessel with a pressure gauge and a valve to charge the system from the mains feed. you need at access this anytime you lose pressure from the system (leaks/bleeding rads/etc) so may be a pain if you have to go in the loft. our neightbour also installed thier boiler in the loft to save space in the kitchen so that may also be an option whilst youre at it.
Last edited by Hyperlink; 16/01/2019 15:28.
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Re: Calling all plumbers advice and opinion required
[Re: H_R]
#1628686
16/01/2019 22:28
16/01/2019 22:28
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 621 Spain
avtokrator
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 621
Spain
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Unvented is the way to go for modern system in my personal opinion too. Price, efficiency, reliability, service and hygiene are just few reasons to mention. Speaking of the expansion tank, being the unvented rubber diaphragm type, it can be placed everywhere you choose in the house, just needs one pipe connection to the heating circuit, isn’t big or heavy piece either. They last with ease more than 10 years under normal conditions, are cheap and servicing/changing is simple job - once a year before the start of the heating season check the pre-charge air pressure, typically 1.5bar, car tyre valve there. If air inside at the specified pressure - it’s OK, if water blowing off the valve - change needed. If you choose to change the boiler almost all of the newer ones come with integrated expansion tank and you need to change/add bigger one only if the house has very large (water volume) heating circuit. Speaking of the hot water tank - the situation is a little bit more complicated, but similar. Being unvented you can put it everywhere you choose, needs two pipes connection to heating circuit and two to the tap water circuit. There is option to add solar panels, but that’s another story yet. There are few BUTs. You want it at higher temperature possible to be able to keep it small but have enough hot water available, so next to the boiler is the best place usually. Further in circuit, read further away from the boiler, lower is the accumulated heat, bigger it has to be, but, that’s only true depending on various factors - primarily the method of connecting it to the heating circuit, if the heating is operative 24h and the type of heating circuit itself. Later on, if you change the boiler then choose one with bigger integrated hot water tank, as I mentioned in my previous post, of course the boiler itself is bigger, but not substantially, and the tank is at the best place to be - next to the burner, so it’s always at the specified temperature, the most efficient solution. These are few examples of what I’m speaking about: 1 2 3 4These are an oil and gas heaters, in the oil one is easier to see the concept A B Then, I’m not sure about the UK legislation, but for only modding the water/heating system Gas-license shouldn’t be required, for changing the boiler - yes, but on the other hand that’s not job for one to do, not only because the license, but also because the first start-up, adjustments and to have valid guarantee. As for the log burners, yes, there are the so called fireplace (-inserts) which have “water shirt” in the fire log walls and can be connected to the heating circuit as primary or auxiliary heat source. So like a fireplace but also heating the radiators, not so effective though, few major drawbacks there: C
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Re: Calling all plumbers advice and opinion required
[Re: H_R]
#1628725
17/01/2019 21:01
17/01/2019 21:01
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 621 Spain
avtokrator
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 621
Spain
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Well, let me be clear, I’m not encouraging anyone to perform diy jobs without the proper knowledge and training, it is matter of advices about given problem. Also won’t enter in polemics of why there are certain restrictive, protectionist, etc. requirements in our respective countries. Speaking of the incredible dangerousness of the water supply and heating systems, think of it as far less dangerous than a car cooling system. These are not alike Mega Watts industrial steam boilers. Could reach certain level of risk if all hydraulic, thermal & electric protections fail all at once. And that’s equally true for vented and unvented systems. Take in account that all standard elements used are tested to withstand something alike 10bar@100°C, or more, before they find place in the market, and that’s way below the working pressure and temps of house system. About the air, don’t know, the only air we are dealing with in that case is the one which the expansion tank contains, it is separated from the water by the means of a rubber membrane, generally something like 5-10L @ 1.5bar. The air is unwanted guest in the water heating systems as we all know. So, my words to be taken only as advice. A proper query with local professional (two,independent, at least) should lead to the final decisions.
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