Argument....400ish coupe Vs 205 Evo....Yes Evo.

Okay here it goes.
I have put a small wager on my soon to be hopefully 400ish bhp Le beating a Peugeot 205 with an evo engine in it.
The Pug is stock,and its running an evo engine with a Gti6 gearbox.
When its ready it will be tuned to around 350ish on stock blower and internals but with stand alone management.
Now i have beaten a 320 Evo on a 1/4 mile before with not much room for error using my 300bhp 20vt on a superspool..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPLOIwXGlU

The challenge is best of 3 1/4 mile runs at the Pod..
£100 at stake.
I was confident but the lad whos building it has nearly finished it and seeing it in the flesh so to speak i am getting a little nervous.

July will be the setting,so conditions should be good weather wise.

So please reassure me that my £100 but more importantly the pride of the Fiat will be saved.

Do you know how little those things weigh?

the 205 is lighter.

the bet would of been in the bag if it was on a track or a top end race.

what turbo are you and him running id try and run a faster spooling turbo or anti lag

I am running a gt2871R with .86 wastegate housing and a 1bar actuator,so my power will be higher up,but once its there its there.
And also i have the magic of the Flea on my side.
Hes using the smaller evo standard turbo.

He has a roll cage to add weight,but thats about it.
whats the diff between the 2 in weight.?

I think you should be concerned!

Your doomed, doomed I tell you!

the 205 as much as I hate to say it will win, I suppose the wild card is just how much of the power it puts out will get put down in any real form of traction.

Well he is using 175 width budget rubber on 15s...
i have 225 toyos.
Also i was hoping my fatter side would limit wheelspin where as i cant see him ever getting the power down until 3rd maybe.
And his launches are full throttle and drop the lot.

If youre a better driver than him then you might have a chance, it depends just how heavy his 205 is.

http://peugeot.mainspot.net/tips/205_spec.shtml

have you got any info on the car, would love to see a pug 205 with a evo planted in it

WEIGHTS Pug

Kerb weight ......................740 to 935 kg*

And i believe the coupe is around the 1100 mark isnt it ???

No, the coupe is over 1300 kg. I reckon you'll both get power down in 2nd if it's dry.

alongs if you stay on boost to be honest with his pants wheels i think you should be ok.

the 205 i think will just wheel spin like you said until 3rd

This is strictly classified,i am not allowed to show any pics unfortunately.But customers of mine have had the odd sneak peak.
He works along side me and is a very clever chap with a big engineering background.So nothing puts him off.
Ontop of that hes nuts (driving)
So very competitive.

The wheel spin issue would be worse for him on an airstrip over a proper drag race like at the 'pod. I'd be concerned though!

I've been in a 200bhp 205, that felt as quick as my 300+ Coupe. Traction was amazing but it did have good tyres on it.

small cars always feel quick but alot of the time when there actually compared to bigger things theres no competition.

i find the coupe feels slower than it is because there more sure footed.

ive been in a rs turbo that only had 210bhp and it felt very fast but put it up against mine and the kicking is bad and mines only got about 250.

also the handleing is so much better

sell some tickets for this, i'd come watch.....

i think he will get off quicker but it will be close at the end

You'll have 310 bhp per ton, he'll have 400-450 per ton if he weighs 800-900kg.

It's gonna take a big difference in other factors to make that up. Your best hope is that he's added extra weight to it with the bigger engine and other stuff.

i think he will wheels spin because of the 205 being to light for the ammount of power

remember though that a lot of the extra weight in his 205 will be from the engine which will be over the driven wheels, thus helping his traction.
also if he runs the dampers on the back harder than the front the car won't squat down as much under heavy acceleration

What should the torque be though....
I should be alot more i think.Plus the coupes do launch well.,
But his turbo will be better for the launch as i might as well not bother with 1st.

This isnt looking good at the moment...but no clear winner either which is good.

And lets not forget that he is using a peugeot 306 gti 6 gearbox......
oooooooooh....which isnt geared for a turbo car....
what are the issues there????

Even if you lose, at least your Coop will look beter than his 205.

well the fq340 evo has 325ftlbs of torque according to the stats

well said JKD we all forgot about the looks

mmm.Well im now thinking that his choice of gearbox may play a part in his defeat

350 through a gti6 box = big bang! but if it holds might just have you. The 205 is nearly half the weight

205gti weighs 905kg in stock form, the gti-6 gearbox is very close ratio, 6th gear gives 20.7mph per 1000rpm from memory, my money would be on the peugeot purely due to its weight although that might creep up to just over a ton with the evo engine and 6 speed box, will probably all come down to traction though

i think it will be very close but i think if you get a good lauch you'l win because if his gear ratios being close he will have to change more meaning losing drive time when you can run it all the way to the read line with more bhp

Well you will have to rip the interior out of your le and get r888 to have more of a chance. How much/where from is your turbo and is your engine fully forged.
If you had a top speed event yours would win and also a track event yours would win but not sure on a 1/4 mile.
At least the pug is not 4wd which gives you hope as it will wheels spin badly.

Is that fueled? Sure my vin plate says 700 and something kg (stock '89 1.6) I'm sure all the interior will be coming out, probably another 100kg. Still don't fancy the coupe unless the torque spread is better than the pugs

yeh thats the weight for a 1.9gti, i had one for years and thats the weight given in the book and also by a few mags like evo, great little car

my mate has a pug 309 turbo running over 340 bhp it is quick but can`t put the power down in 1st 2nd and 3rd just light up the front wheels. i have raced him at santa pod in my mk2 golf vr6 turbo over 400 bhp and i do him and my coupe does my vr6 only from pull off intill we hit 2nd ...... so i am saying coupe all the way

Iv seen a 4x4 cosworth rear engined t16 lookalike and that distroyed skylines, iv had loads of 205 Gti's and I would say if it was a track event you wouldn't stand a chance! Iv tested the 50mph into sharp right hand bends and it's a weapon, but I would agree the gti6 box is prob going to blow up, I would of uprated a 5 speed 206 gti 180 gear box as it's much quicker. I think if you do a best out of three you stand a better chance.

I really have a soft spot for the 205's.......and coupes of course :-) very keen to see how this turns out so will be watching this post with interest

If the 205 gets traction off the line, you will be eaten alive by the little Pug

The EVO lump (at least the non FQ400 variants) are relatively early-spooling so won't deliver the power with a huge thump (which is what breaks traction)

However, you can't disguise the fact that the Pug will be around 400KG lighter and that will make a huge difference

Your only hope is that he runs cheap and nasty tyres, in which case, you have a fighting chance.

However, I'd still consider stripping the Coupe - its worth 0.25 - 0.5 seconds - you should be aiming for a mid to high twelve

Hee, hee, looking forward to the video of this. As I was reading, I was thinking that the box ratios might not be ideal for the engine's T&P curves. If the GTi6 box is short ratio, it's not going help putting the power down.

My own personal wager is that you'll both spend far more than the £100 wager itself trying to win. Petrolheads rule!

1. Get some fresh semi-slick or racing slick for your coupe at least for the front, and don't put them on before hand which would alert him. Strip out the rear seats and good luck!

2. Install an electronic launch control ECU, do some testings to fine tune the setting, and hope for the best!


Have to admit that the little 205 looks to have a better spec on paper.

It'll rip you a new A-hole if he can find traction. The little Renault 5's run 11-second quarters using the standard block for instance! But you never know, if he's using budget tyres he may just wheelspin all the way!

Will budget tyres even deal with 350bhp?

Launch control unit. £120. Get it mapped to handle it by Flea.
That should give you an advantage in the launch stages.

Its gonna be close. I remember a MI16 having a go with me and getting destroyed in a straight line and i was only running 260ish, i know its a different engine etc but even if its not an easy win it should make it a bit in your favour.

Oh man, this contest is getting serious! This is going to cost you a lot more than the 100 quid beer money! Can't wait!

When I get a minute I'll ask the laws of physics and see what they say

Is an EVO engine much heavier than the standard 1.9 unit?

When are you planning to go to pod??
Think this may be a good social event
also!

But back to the topic at hand, this is all going to come down to traction, of be changes his mind and gets better rubber.... I think you may be shafted but if he does not I think you have a good shot of taking his money!
Good luck!!

Here's a video of a 205 T16 with 300BHP. Note how it lights the wheels up at 70 when it comes on boost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWNVl_o5B_k

BTW not a real T16, it has a T16 engine with the FWD layout.

i would have thought if the guys going to the effort of installing an evo engine and 6 speed box hes not going to fit budget tyres as they will be a small part of the expenditure, it will be all about traction

Did the Gti6 box come with a LSD as standard? If not, surely the Pug is just going to spin all the power away on whichever wheel breaks traction first?

If the Pug has a LSD you are going to struggle. . . .

Fingers crossed!!

even with a good set of tyres on the pug will not make it stop spinning even with the extra weight on the front end still will light up the wheels and the gear box has not got lsd... and that power though that box is a no no he should of use the gti 180 box for the better acceleration and geared to....
what ever happens tho it is going to be a good stand off

I looking forward to it!!

He actually built a T16 205 which was the fastest front wheel drive car in britain back in the day.....And same as above the rapid acceleration isnt actually the speed but the measured wheelspin.



And no the Gti6 box does not have a LSD but it renouned for its strength standard on 300+ applications.



Right
Heres the info,
Its a Evo 6 lump running evo 8 manifolds and turbo.
Custom straight through exhaust,
will be using 215 slick tyres and has had the interior removed,but a rollcage in place.
The bhp should deinately be around 350 with the torque near enough matched.

Now dare i say that no one can actually give a clear answer.

So that you lot believe me i sneaked into the workshop late one night and took some surveilance piccys.
And let me tell you it was like mission impossible,









However if i can beat a 300bhp 4wd evo easy enough with a very experienced track driver in a previous car running 300 bhp and 300 ibs ft torque should the weight difference really be an issue as lets face it what he gains in weight loss he will lose in traction.



Now i am a little worried that my big mouth has lost me £100.

I have said it once, ill say it again, your doomed, even more so with your update on his spec

If he's running slicks with low air pressure and you're on Toyos, then you're going to lose. Both running the same tyres you'd pip it but he'd be closing fast.

I've run data through the calculator for both cars;
Pug 205 Evo;
Standard 1.9GTi *tested* weight + 50kgs
Data for friends 360bhp Evo 8
Slick tyres with same co-efficient of friction as Nigel's best drag strip run

60ft Time: 2.14
330ft: 5.33
1/8 Mile Time: 7.89
1/8 Mile Terminal: 99.4
1000ft: 10.04
1/4 Mile Time: 11.90
1/4 Mile Terminal: 124.7

400bhp Coop
Standard weight
Data predicted but based on existing car data
Standard *wet weather* toyo tyres albeit low pressure

60ft Time: 2.21
330ft: 5.47
1/8 Mile Time: 8.12
1/8 Mile Terminal: 96.7
1000ft: 10.30
1/4 Mile Time: 12.23
1/4 Mile Terminal: 120.9

Can't wait to see the actual results. Where were they dyno'd?

jonnybravoturbo have a little faith... the evo 6 lump is pushing around 286 bhp with the evo 8 turbo on it i would say it is running around 320 to 330 depends on what evo 8 turbo his has got.... if you can get a good take off you are flying but if you take off poor you have problems

Johnny, you will be over 400bhp

I used to have a 205 with the Citroen 16v engine and 45 carbs, that was knocking on the door of 200bhp (197bhp) and felt absolutely crazy !

It didn't have the turbo surge of torque but it was still a seriously quick little car.
He's going to have exactly the same traction problems you'll have because there is no weight at all in a 205 but once he's got it moving that light weight is in his favour.

I have every faith in you mate.
But just to be on the safe side,should i lose how about you bring yours down to wipe the smile off his face.


And as for 1/4 mile times i think my last projects best time was 13.8.
I would guess this one should hopefully be in the mid 12's.

i can do that ...it wont be my coupe tho i would get eaten alive i dont think 220bhp will keep up it will be my mk2 vr6 turbo

After seeing these - Id say you would have a quick car to beat!

205 394bhp

Same car

Really cant comment as you dont know the bhp - but its gonna be over 300, so...... Byeeeeeee

I'd personally think of it as a race with a modified EVO wearing Pug 205 clothes.

Don't know if that makes the prospect of failure any easier to deal with though?

Personally, I wonder how much of that EVO power the Pug is realistically going to put down. Lots of power & light car = wheel spin and poorer 0-100 times.

I only say this because years ago I had an UT pushing a lot of power. God knows how much, as it was never rolling roaded. But on full boost, it was undriveable really. The wheels would spin in 3rd.

I'd say the Coupe has a fighting chance to do this.

Sorry but that 205 is gonna piss all over you!

Coupes just aren't very fast

nothing like a bit of honesty!

are you talking about your own coupe in this case then kj

No car I'll own will ever be fast enough for me. I want more power. more, MORE!!

Agree, I want a car that could break traction at 200 mph if I planted my foot.

Anyway - back on topic - the 205, as it has slicks (and presumably he'll have gone to the trouble of getting crinkle-wall drag slicks) will potentially get in the high 11's. You really shouldn't win if he gets a half decent launch and doesn't lunch the gearbox, which is however a very real possiblility with that much grip.

Maybe you'll get him on a technicality and he'll forget his helmet and not be able to run?

i dont think you need a helmet at santa pod (unless its a drop top)

You need a 20vt then.

Regarding this race though, this will be very interesting to watch!

I think you need one now if your terminal is likely to be more than 100mph, softtop or not.

Coupe meet at santa pod then!

(saying that,its alot of smiles to be wiped off coupe owners faces if the pug gets the win)

I would be still smiling, as you would be losing in style.

After all, if someone put an engine on an actual Tesco shopping trolley and managed to beat an Aston Martin DBS in a 1/4 mile run, for some reason I don't think we would see James Bond driving around in a shopping trolley in his next film.

I said i want more power

Coupes can generally get the power down very well, and given that Johnny will be in the region of 420-440bhp he will have a significant power advantage. This is enough to be putting out sub 12.5 with 118mph terminals on road tyres. If it really is game on then we can go to close on 500bhp with some nice drag tyres which will make a sub 12 possible and 120mph+ terminals, of course a head to head is all about the launch

So... is Johnny willing to risk breaking it to ensure victory?

Well this is in your hands Leighton.You know whats at stake here.Plus i work with him everyday and will never live it down.
You best pm me the addy to send this cyl head i have got to you then so we can make a start.
definately.



Ontop of this whats the best slicks for this launch.?

OMG! This is getting serious! Initially it was 400~ish Coupe, now you guys are talking about 500bhp! It is getting to some serious numbers.

If you loose just get your £100 quid back off flea for not making your car fast enough hehe!

I guess its game on by the looks of things! This thread is going to make a good read! I want to know the date so i can come and watch!! Cheer on the Coupé

Hi Guys just a quick update the 205 that john mentioned is now completed, finished mapping on thursday....just need to mot and tax now then its on the road.....Below are a few pictures from when we exhibited at this years Autosport at the NEC

205 evo

205 evo

205 evo

205 evo

205 evo

603.5 dyno run

Well done Rob, looks awesome.

Well done, nice to see the fruits of lots of hard work!

Finally! Nice to see her in one piece at last... good stuff Rob. Might see her next week,

Tim

Wow 2009 i started this post,.

Have you handed the £100 over yet ?

No Rob's not handed it over yet.

Ultimate street car is the showdown

Great result Rob, well done to all involved

10.838 @ 132mph second run of the day

205 Evo @ Santapod

Sweet J That's impressive

Are you still on the stock suspension? There's some jumping on every gear change, looks brilliant, btw

I like the fact that when I first made this post ,400bhp for mine and 350 for yours.
Several years later and still not raced down the pod side by side with over 1200bhp between them.

Nice one Rob! Bet that sucked the cheeks in (at both ends)

Well just get on with it - although I think the 205 might win now....

Yeah, a coop day out. Even if it is only to see David beat Goliath (think you can guess What's What).

I have had a plethora of 205's over the years and still own a gti6 powered one and its seriously rapid.

I also have a friend who had a t16 powered putting out similar numbers to what your quoting and watched it humiliate an fq400

The power to weight ratio is insane and I don't think this is one you will win but fascinating nonetheless and props to whoever squeezed an evo lump in there

That got an immense launch! I can't see a FWD Coupe catching that.

Three years to do 1/4 mile? Even a BMW is quicker than that....

Preparation takes time .
A lot of determination and aggression will decide the winner.
£100 will go nicely towards my next holiday.

Just remembered this very interesting thread. What happened in the end?

you recalled a 4 year old thread, slow day at work?

I remember you too!

You used to drive a................Fiat Coupe............. didn't you?

It's just that I saw this high BHP Coop thread today http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1567635#Post1567635 saw JBT's name in it and remembered this!

Used to, still miss them but have enough Italian in my life to make up for it

I think the forum nasties pi55ed jbt off enough for him to not post on here much, plus all the willy wagging between him, biggenz etc was getting too much.
He's well past that power now.

By that epithet do you refer to the volunteers who offer freely of their time to provide a forum which is both friendly and informative, without the extraneous abuse and clutter found in many other fora?

If so, an apology to them might be appreciated.

No, the mods do an OK job to say it's from the goodness of their hearts. Sometimes the age difference of the 30 somethings does differ from that of those closer to retirement age, but we are all adults so that is accepted as banter and no more.
I think the incessant picking on one man, who works harder than anyone (save Joe and the boys in Birmingham who equally love the coupe) to ensure the survival and continued Road worthiness of coupes was too much. John has done alot for me and my brother, at a stupidly reasonable rate and with continuous updates, I find it distressing that a single man, who shares a unit and works his bollocks off on coupes feels he can't post on a coupe forum because of constant digs and comments, mainly from EX OWNERS.
This is a forum dying a death, even kajay doesn't appear like he used to, hell even Flea has been called in recent posts?!? When was that ever the case? (multi-air) I'm just asking that the current members appreciate what exists and don't abuse what's left. If we do, I'm afraid that all the professional people will leave and we will be left with 'what oil' threads and Jimc will have to actually pay a professional to fix something!!

Regrettably, people poking at things about which they know nothing is common on internet fora the world over... I don't think there's a way to stop that, save for the person being abused to make a complaint about it to the mods or one of the board members.

Such complaints are *always* taken seriously. I have no recollection of any complaints from John, though I could of course be mistaken, and I don't recall any particular incidents. That said, I know from talking to other specialists (I haven't spoken directly to John for some time, other than by PM here) that each seems to acquire their own 'fan club' who seem to take it as a matter of pride that not only would they not use another specialist but that those specialists should be abused on all possible occasions. Such childish behaviour helps no-one, and if we see it here we will jump on it, but we have no control over other social media. As you point out, it is often those who know least that shout loudest...

Remember: the club exists to promote the care and use of these fine cars. As part of that mandate, part of a member's subscription goes towards paying for this forum, and the way the forum is run is the result of input from not only the originators of it but also from the current club membership. As a result, the forum is to *their* taste, for *their* benefit, and its use is extended to non-members as a courtesy.

Any member may raise points with the club board at any time, and in particular at the annual general meeting, and may also volunteer to stand on the board.

There have been for years complaints from forum users that there is not the same craic as in the past, that it's quiet, that it's not as much fun. This is inevitable; as the coupe ages the owners', and therefore the forum users', demographic changes: I am approaching retirement age and have owned a coupe for half my adult life; others are in their twenties and have just bought their first - but like it or not there are not as many coupes around as once there were. Nonetheless, people do seem to hang around here even after they sell their coupes, and often provide valuable input to discussion.

So... I commend both the club and this forum to potential, actual, and previous owners of the coupe. You are the people who make it what it is, and keep it alive.

Thanks.

p.s. There are forum users here for whom the activities of the Nazis seventy years ago had a real and direct effect. I know of one case where all but two members of a family were exterminated in Dachau and other concentration camps. While the use of 'xxx Nazi' is a common internet insult, it would be appreciated by me and by others if people would refrain from using it.

I fixed that for you, even though I am one of those who's family was directly destroyed during that woeful period.

My point was historic, there's been no real horrors on here for ages!

Thanks, BM.

It's OK, no need to be causing offense for the sake of it!

Remember: the club exists to promote the care and use of these fine cars. As part of that mandate, part of a member's subscription goes towards paying for this forum, and the way the forum is run is the result of input from not only the originators of it but also from the current club membership. As a result, the forum is to *their* taste, for *their* benefit, and its use is extended to non-members as a courtesy.

Just thought how about investing £10 BM?

I did invest for a few years but then PayPal happened and I refuse to use PayPal, plus I often don't like *their* tastes but I try and abide by and adhere to the requirements as I like the cars and the forum is still interesting, although less so now.
We are totally ot from the op BTW, this is really frowned upon

The Club is quite happy to take peoples' money by bank transfer. In fact we prefer it as we don't have to pay any transaction fees.

Back on topic now please.

A thread titled 'argument' hmm!

Reasons for returning it JKD?

The people who have posted before and since the idea of the forum is dying or that certain people returning have saved it should be a little bit pissed off.

Why is it dying. ?

Maybe the/ex Coupe (as it seemed relevant) can explain. £10. Hmmm but free to people to put the forum down.

This isn't the thread for this discussion and as a guest I'll leave this to the members to discuss should they see fit.

JBT has his own forum now !

Fccuk all wrong with "what oil" threads if someone wants or needs to know. After all isn't that one of the reasons we have a specialist forum

Well the club remains even though some people dont visit anymore. Still the number one resource. Respected highly by all (unless banned, then it is the worst and most terrible website ever) and a very friendly place to be.

Also a site that I visit frequently and it's one of the sites I look forward to viewing and reading after being away from the internet. Cant be that bad then

A little like a workplace. Subject to change and people come and go. i never understood all the 'it used to be this and that' I tend to take things as they are and move on along with change

No that's why there is a search function, in 2002 'what oil' was a sensible question, 14 years on its just boring.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I'm not looking for an argument, but I think discussions on oil are more relevant than ever.

1. Lubricant technology has moved forward in the last decade and a half, albeit not as much as it did in the 70s, 80s & 90s.

2. Most Coupés still running will be between 100,000 and 200,000 miles, so we have 14 more years of experience/history to go on.

I would much rather read a fresh thread based on latest lubes available and those extra years of Coupé owner and specialist repairers experience, than a 14 year old thread.

My Coupé's just coming up to 90,000 miles and I want it to run happily for at least another 200,000.

So; let's keep discussing oil. Anything that helps keep Coupés running longer, can't possibly be boring.

Lubricant technology might have moved on, but the Coupe hasn't.

10/40 semi synthetic, as specified, will always be the most suitable oil for the standard (ish) Coupe in my opinion

17 years ago fiat specified semi synthetic for the 20V Turbo but today's oil technology, not many would still use semi when there are some fantastic fully synthetic oils available, modified car or not.

To say oil discussion threads are boring is ridiculous and those people don't need to read the post or even comment if they would prefer to just read posts on BHP. There are many other boy racer forums for that kind of thing if that's all you want. If you're bored of this forum, move on......

this forum was built on boy racers and oil threads .

and ... we built this city on rock and roll .....

You make a valid point see link below

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

Would you use Mobil One high mileage oil ?

Anyone know of inexpensive outlet ?

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-high-mileage

One point to consider though is that unless one happens to be an expert in the rather specialist world of research into modern oil technology as applied to old and worn engines, then one is merely either spouting an opinion or repeating/denying (delete as necessary) others' opinions.

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for opinions as to the suitability of a particular oil; it is equally reasonable to offer that requested opinion. However, it is also reasonable to request - indeed to require - that all such requests and opinions be offered in a single well-identified thread. That thread is located in the maintenance section.

To be honest, I would *love* to see some well-tested and documented comparative oil tests. Unfortunately, these would require such time and expense as to be utterly impractical - I doubt that anyone reading this has the ability to measure (e.g.) the chemical stability of the oil with regard to time, engine speed, engine load, etc. Even a change in fuel consumption with a different oil can only be anecdotal; it's quite likely that a change in air pressure, or a wet road, or heavy traffic, can change consumption by more than the oil does.

The point is - we don't know. We only have opinions, and of course, *our* opinions are the best. So let's share those opinions, in a single place, please.

By the way: the 'fourteen year old thread' is four years old.

Also: of the twelve advantages claimed for synthetic oils on the Wikipedia article referenced above, ten are quoted without reference and one is disputed...

I think oilman sorted out all the fluff from reality a while ago. As stated correctly above the rest is hot air and guff.

As for high miles and oil type, start thinking quality and frequency.