Fiat Coupe Club UK
For those who have fitted HID's
Posted By: Begbie
For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 19:54
This post has come from the FiatForum, which i found on the integrale forum, which is a letter to the Department for Transport and their reply with regards to fitting HID's
Quote:
Dear Mr XXXXXX,
Please see attached our fact sheet which outlines the Department's understanding of the regulations relating to HID conversion kits.
Please note that the Department for Transport cannot provide an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts.
Yours sincerely
Jillian Smith
DfT - Transport Technology and Standards
The fact Sheet; (It came in form of a word document, but I have just copied and pasted here for ease.)
December 2006
Aftermarket HID headlamps
In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.
If you require any further information regarding the regulations covered by this fact sheet, please contact the DfT at the address below:
Transport Technology and Standards 6
Department for Transport
Zone 2/04
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street Telephone: 020 7944 2078
London Fax: 020 7944 2196
SW1P 4DR Email: TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 20:00
Interesting....
The only part the coupe appears to comply with as standard is the dips staying on with the mains.
Can't see the boys in blue spending time on this one (hopefully) however come MOT time you guys in UK have a problem. Maybe do the coversion so you can slot in halogens (same as cat-decat exhausts) for the test?
Posted By: Tartandude
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 20:07
Quote:
however come MOT time you guys in UK have a problem.
I haven't heard of one UK coop failing an MOT because of HID's being fitted. I have heard of them failing because of poor angle etc but once these have been adjusted they pass.
Has anyone who has fitted HID's failed because they had HID's fitted?
Im not worried got until October 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 20:11
Should have said 'Problem if the DOT want to make it one..ie tell the testers to look for aftermarket HID fitments.' We have something of an issue here with our NCT testers and beam height / beam shape. I got a new Skoda failed on its first NCT because the 'lights were mounted too low in the car...not high enough from the road surface'
Posted By: Tartandude
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 20:15
Quote:
Has anyone who has fitted HID's failed because they had HID's fitted?
Just re-read this sentence
Posted By: mattB
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 20:28
Ok. And has anybody failed the MOT or been arrested because they have pagid pads fitted?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 20:54
I knew it was only a matter of time before they cottened onto this.
I think there will be an issue with this very soon, just like in the USA where it is banned in almost every state.
6000K and above are noticeable to the eye, but 5000k and below would possibly be okay and not noticed as a blatant conversion.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 21:02
TBH i think the coops beam pattern is more than upto the job due to its cut off being so sharp.
And if people in germany with coops can convert and still be road legal then im sure we are safe and it wouldnt stand up in court on the polices side...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 21:07
Or as Jayzee says go for the yellow/white lamps. The brightest of the HID's is the 3800k bulb which is a pretty good match for halogens, also make sure they are properly adjusted. I find my beams are still a bit high even when adjusted to 1 on the switch.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 10/01/2007 23:05
Quote:
Or as Jayzee says go for the yellow/white lamps. The brightest of the HID's is the 3800k bulb which is a pretty good match for halogens, also make sure they are properly adjusted. I find my beams are still a bit high even when adjusted to 1 on the switch.
Absolutely Skodaman, the beam pattern they produce isn't right for HID's even when set to low, they point sharply up to the left.
A good test is a three lane motorway, if you are in the outside lane see how much you light up the road signs to your left!
Posted By: DaveG
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 03:02
Yes they point up sharply to the left...until they are cut off at the top again.
The beam pattern is a bit like this
Code:
___
\____
and not
Code:
\
\
\_____
I would say the beam pattern is exactly right
The reason your HID's light up the road signs so well on the left is the reason that people fit HID's in the first place
Posted By: mattB
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 03:24
Now, last time I checked, I wasn't a scientist but.....
they look pretty damned similar to me 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 03:42
You crash at nite.
Insurers examine car and decide lights weren't legal...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 03:43
Don't crash at night.
Posted By: paulw
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 03:50
IMHO, and I agree with others, I think there's more likely to be a problem if they are badly adjusted than the conversion itself.
The cut-off on the coupe is pretty severe and causes far less of a problem to oncoming traffic than some halogen fitted cars.
Posted By: mattB
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 03:50
Who said they weren't legal? That just says in the department's view they aren't. Doesn't say you could actually get in trouble for it.
And if they have been sold to me as E marked and legal for road use in my vehicle and also passed MOTs then how on earth could I know they aren't legal?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 03:57
IMHO if they are E marked, then that's enough for me.
Posted By: Tartandude
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 04:01
Quote:
IMHO if they are E marked, then that's enough for me.
Same here thats my story and Im sticking to it
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 04:22
E mark just means the lights themselves are legal, doesn't refer to what you fit them in: bulb mounting.
Read the text at the top of the thread. The DOT says retrofitted lights are a no no unless you fit a new lamp housing specifically designed for HID's. The Coupe light boxes aren't designed for HID's so they are technically illegal..you can draw all the cutsy diagrams you like and have plenty of shots of shed doors ..as the exception to the 1989 act which doesn't mention HID's (because they didn't exist at the time) is a 'proper headlamp unit designed for the job.'
Long winded way of saying its a grey area which a tabloid newspaper will doubtless run a campaign on...'Toddler killed by badly adjusted aftermarket HID kit' Some yob threw it off a 10 storey block and it landed in his pram?
However I doubt Bill Plod would be interested unless they were a really daft colour eg 12K purple and 'a danger to other road users' through bad adjustment.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 12:44
These lamps are seriously bright, probably as bright, if not brighter than 100w bulbs.
I have had three different cars with factory HID's and the beam pattern is nothing like the ones produced on the coupe. This is where self-levelling comes in, to avoid (to a certain extent) blinding other road users.
We all know that factory HID's can blind others in certain road conditions even with the correct motors fitted.
When I changed my coop headlights to HID's I bought some brand new headlights as the covers on my originals were shot. The new lights were never fitted to a car before so had to be adjusted.
Even on my lowest default setting, I can when taking left-hand bends on a slight incline blind someone going the other way due to the sharp beam pattern.
The lights in the standard setting are still much lower than the originals I removed. I have another standard coop now to make a direct comparison and IMHO anyone that fits these kits would need to adjust the setting they were at with halogens so they are that much lower.
A good case in point, on the M25 the other night I saw a Merc E class that had a conversion done to straight halogen lamps (not projectors) the bloody idiot looked like he was on full beam all the time.
It's people like this that will make the DOT sit up and take notice on the subject.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 11/01/2007 17:11
Hmmm, interesting stuff. I am about to convert the Jeep (which has projector lamps) as it is worse (yes worse) than the Coupe (besides the coupe is SORN over winter, and it doesn't really get dark enough at night in the Summer up here). I don't think reading this info will stop me from doing it, as far as I can see (boom boom) not being able to see at night is far more dangerous than fitting the kits to standard light cases.
In fact, I've just been to look at the lights on the Laguna (standard fit Xenons) and the Jeep, and the appear the same i.e. completely clear lenses. Surely this directive would only apply to thre older style lenses that have focus markings on them?
Also, as far as I am aware, there is no self leveling on the Laguna. When you switch them on, the beam doesn't 'move up' as I have seen on some other cars (notably Audi).
Posted By: Barmybob
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 01/02/2007 13:20
Found
THIS on the Auto Express website.
Throws a bit more light onto the subject
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 01/02/2007 14:51
What a load of crap! 80% of the chavvy corsa's, Nova's etc round here all have HID's fitted, and the garages all pass them no problem. Up the minstry of transport!
Posted By: Jim_Clennell
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 01/02/2007 16:02
If the HID kits are fitted properly, have the correct beam pattern and don't diffuse the light too much then all well and good, but I'm SO fed up of getting blinded by badly aligned or badly-fitted HID lights. IMHO it is much more dangerous than driving a bit more slowly and having halogen lights. As the Auto Express feature demonstrates, badly fitted HID's actually produce less useful light.
Posted By: mattB
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 01/02/2007 17:58
I think the important thing is that it says the
could be illegal, not they are.
Having passed an MOT recently with them on, and having seen a coupe driving with the lights I really dont think they are. The beam pattern is pretty much identical to standard bulbs (or at least it is with the kit I have fitted). The only way to really know would be to get them tested.
Is the beam pattern analyser thing a part of the MOT, or do they generally just check the height is ok? The garage adjusted the height of mine at MOT time after testing the alignment and finding they were pointing too low.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 01/02/2007 21:55
Trouble is so many idiots are fitting these to standard headlights and not projection, so have no control over the light output.
These are the people that are going to get a ban put on these through ignorance
Posted By: mattB
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 01/02/2007 22:53
That's fair enough. But what it says is that if you fit them, and get the lights tested and they are still within legal regs then they are ok to have fitted.
I'm not sure if the coupe would come into this category though. Anyone know about the MOT question?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 01/02/2007 22:54
Just height AFAIK Matt.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 02/02/2007 01:04
My halogens were fine and adjusted..however soon as I put the HID bulb in the beam pointed sharply up and left. Illuminated most of the left hand verge and any low-flying UFO's. Needed a fair amount of twiddling on both the adjusters to bring it back into shape..
Posted By: Baz76
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 02/02/2007 01:06
In answer to the MOT question,the height is measured and the area to the left where the beam kicks up has to be in a specific zone.
If i remember to take my camera with me i`ll take a couple of before and after pics on my beam tester when i`m fitting my HID`s which i should be fitting soon.
Baz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 02/02/2007 02:41
I might be booed out of here, but why do you people need those crazy blinding lights in the first place? Because they ARE terribly uncomfortable, just think of all those morons who ever blinded you.
Every time one passes me at night I feel like jumping out of the car and hammering the front lights to bits...
Posted By: Wishy
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 02/02/2007 02:47
Drive your coop in the dark and you'll see why. Not fitted them myself yet but it's on the list.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 02/02/2007 02:54
Drive your coop in the dark and you'll see why. Not fitted them myself yet but it's on the list.
Wishy, I did drive it in the dark, on an A40 stretch without any street lights, a bit dim, but nothing unmanagable
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 02/02/2007 04:32
With halogens, the standard Coupe headlights are appalling. They have hardly any useful range and the light given off is weak and patchy. When the road is dark with grime and rain and poor road markings it can get downright dangerous, especially with a car which has the straightline performance of the Coupe but not really the handling to go with it.
Last night I had my girlfriend drive around 25 metres in front of me on the A1 with me behind her with the HID's on. Even on the higher setting '0' she said they were fine and weren't producing glare and dazzling her. She did complain like hell to me later on though when she was blinded by a Range Rover sporting HID's coming the other way though.
Looking at the Auto Express vid, the headlight units on a R-reg Megane are completely unsuited to a HID conversion as the main focusing of the beam is done by the pattern on the outer cover or lens and is not capable of keeping a powerful HID bulb in line without spilling light all over the shop. Modern halogen lights use a completely unpatterned clear lens and use precisely angled mirrored internal surfaces to focus the bulb, making them more suitable for use with a HID kit. The projector type lenses as on the Coupe are even better still.
Posted By: Wishy
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 02/02/2007 04:34
With halogens, the standard Coupe headlights are appalling.
Ermm yep
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 07/02/2007 06:50
With halogens, the standard Coupe headlights are appalling.
Ermm yep
There is a reason for that, if you look closely you will see tiny little crazing all over the clear plastic cover. This is either the cover itself or the plastic film that covers it. The crazing deflects much of the halogen light output back into the headlight.
I bought new headlights and with the standard halogens provided (cheapest bulbs going) the light output is actually very good.
You could always try and dismantle the covers and clean the inside as they do get dirty within a few years. As most cars out there are six years plus old now, they are bound to be filthy.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 07/02/2007 07:13
or see about getting someone to make a glass cover for them although im sure this wont be cheap.could take the covers off and get them buffed up
Posted By: Baz76
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 13/02/2007 00:56
Well I got my HID`s fitted tonight and what a difference
. I`ll just echo what everyone else has said by saying that it`s well worth the £120 for the kit
.
I forgot to take my camera with me to take an "after" photo
so I tried with my phone but it`s way too bright to get a good image
. Anyway from my own comparison on the beam setter the HID image is perfect and is much sharper than the old halogen image,certainly isn`t scattered all over the place like Auto Express is reporting
.
Baz
Posted By: mattB
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 13/02/2007 01:04
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 13/02/2007 06:36
That's because you have projectors
It's the idiots that have standard halogens that are causing the problems when they fit HIDs.
I've taken my HID's off the blue coop which has new headlights anyway and installed the kit on my LE. The blue coop has a pending MOT, so don't really want any excuse for them to give it a fail.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 13/02/2007 18:33
I put HID's in the main beams (overkill?) and the result wasn't much. Normally run on 100w H1's which work fine but get pretty hot even though no wires or plastic has ever melted.
HID's weren't as good as the halogens. Very bright but no proper beam seemed diffused all around. Taken them out and back to the bulbs. Main beam reflector problem?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 15/02/2007 01:57
I think this proves the theory
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: For those who have fitted HID's - 15/02/2007 02:09
hello everyone. i have halogen in my early 96 16vt both myself and my wife think the lights are great, even though the lights are a little crazed.
all the best
