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Standard 20vt Remap
#756628
26/01/2009 16:37
26/01/2009 16:37
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
OP
Forum is my life
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OP
Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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I have just finished mapping Carphone's (Dan) standard LE and thought it was worth a little mention. Dan had it on the rollers at Powerstation last year and while it made near enough standard power they told him it was very lean when coming on boost although it richened up around 5000rpm to redline. Dan replaced the MAF sensor on their advice but unfortunately this made no difference. The car is in good health, no errors, a compression test today showed a strong engine. There are no mechanical defects, everything works as it should. Run 1 - Standard Chip The car makes 1bar of boost around 2800rpm in 3rd gear. The fueling at this point is 13.2 afr rising to 13.5 at 3400rpm, you wouldn't run a normally aspirated car this lean let alone a boosted one! It is only until 5000rpm that the fueling reaches 11.9afr, which is around where a standard car should be. Thereafter it bottoms out at around 11.3 slowly richening up to 11afr at redline. It's quite surprising to see a standard car have such poor fueling, and while unusual, it's something to consider as it's not just modified cars that go pop! Final Run - Remap @ 1.2bar The fueling is now back on track, coupled with a few other little tweaks. It's like a different car, I know I am used to big power but for a standard car with just a remap it felt pretty darn quick! A good result I dare say
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Flea]
#756669
26/01/2009 17:24
26/01/2009 17:24
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sprintsteve
Unregistered
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sprintsteve
Unregistered
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love the fueling line flea !!
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: ]
#756724
26/01/2009 18:30
26/01/2009 18:30
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MABR
Unregistered
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MABR
Unregistered
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Ooh I've been waiting to see what you could do with a standard setup.
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: ]
#756726
26/01/2009 18:32
26/01/2009 18:32
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pebbles
Unregistered
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pebbles
Unregistered
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Looking forward to getting my standard 20v done in the near future flea, looks good.
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: benje]
#756851
26/01/2009 20:37
26/01/2009 20:37
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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So if this car is completely standard and it's running poor doesn’t that indicate that there is a problem somewhere?
Surely remapping the ECU is only compensating for an existing problem unless the problem is the actual ECU/map.
What happens if the problem is suddenly fixed won't it run too rich?
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: carphone]
#756881
26/01/2009 21:03
26/01/2009 21:03
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
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Would the car would have adapted to a lean injector by running the others rich resulting in a acceptable afr? If the FPR was leaking before the correct pressure wouldn't the ecu increase its/injector duty cycle? What else except a stray map would lead to lean running?
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: ]
#756909
26/01/2009 21:25
26/01/2009 21:25
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
OP
Forum is my life
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OP
Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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So if this car is completely standard and it's running poor doesnt that indicate that there is a problem somewhere?
Surely remapping the ECU is only compensating for an existing problem unless the problem is the actual ECU/map.
What happens if the problem is suddenly fixed won't it run too rich? Well I posted knowing that this would likely be questioned, indeed I knew it would likely be questioned by you! There are two answers from my point of view: 1. The car as stated was mechanically sound. There are only a number of things that effect fueling and as Dan has stated, three of them have been changed i.e. MAF, fuel pump and injectors. The coolant temps were perfect, the air temps were normal, the lambda was normal, the turbo was boosting as standard. I make a point of checking many things before mapping and also road testing as standard. I have sent people away if I believe there is something wrong with the car which needs fixing before mapping. 2. My due diligence completed as stated above, Dan brought his car to be mapped, that's what I did.
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Flea]
#756943
26/01/2009 21:57
26/01/2009 21:57
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Well I posted knowing that this would likely be questioned, indeed I knew it would likely be questioned by you! Thankyou I’ll take that as a compliment guess I keep you on the ball then Look I’m not questioning your ability as its obvious that you know what you’re doing however I do find faults like this intriguing. I ask questions because I want to learn. I know you won’t let anybody leave without it being tested and obviously if there is a gremlin and you've fixed it which it appears so by the fuelling graph then well done. (Credit where credits due) However I am curious as to the behaviour of the ECU if the situation changes. (BTW you have PM)
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Nigel]
#756954
26/01/2009 22:02
26/01/2009 22:02
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
OP
Forum is my life
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OP
Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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the only thing I can think of to make it run so lean on such a standard car is voltage at the fuel pump - it doesn't matter if the pump is brand new, if its not getting 12v - 13v, then it won't deliver the fuel Yes your quite right Nigel. Dan actually has a direct battery feed to the fuel pump as fitted by Motormech. Obviously as engine load increases so do the demands on the fuel pump, however the reverse was true for Dan's car whereby it was lean at lighter loads and rich and heavy loads.
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Flea]
#757166
27/01/2009 00:49
27/01/2009 00:49
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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the only thing I can think of to make it run so lean on such a standard car is voltage at the fuel pump - it doesn't matter if the pump is brand new, if its not getting 12v - 13v, then it won't deliver the fuel Yes your quite right Nigel. Dan actually has a direct battery feed to the fuel pump as fitted by Motormech. Obviously as engine load increases so do the demands on the fuel pump, however the reverse was true for Dan's car whereby it was lean at lighter loads and rich and heavy loads. My Coupe displayed this same trait when the turbo seized, the harder it was for the engine to spin the turbine, the richer it went at high revs and the leaner it went when coming onto boost. At the point I took the turbo off it was too seized to turn by hand at all (but the engine could still get 1.2 bar out of it) and the AFR was 10 at the redline, but lean at 3500rpm. Changed the turbo and it was back to normal again. Probably a completely different thing, but I just noticed the similarity in the fuelling curve
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Flea]
#757238
27/01/2009 03:15
27/01/2009 03:15
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Per
Unregistered
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Per
Unregistered
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The fueling at this point is 13.2 afr rising to 13.5 at 3400rpm, you wouldn't run a normally aspirated car this lean let alone a boosted one! It is only until 5000rpm that the fueling reaches 11.9afr, which is around where a standard car should be. Sorry if I´ve missed something here, but on a std car, isn't the Lambda supposed to as close to 1 (one) as possible? Which is 14:1 (air:fuel). In that case it should be quite safe? Or is it a completely different matter on a turbo aspirated car? On mid-load anyway it should not be.. right?
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: ]
#757247
27/01/2009 07:42
27/01/2009 07:42
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Omran
Unregistered
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Omran
Unregistered
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cool very nice results and nice fuel line to show..but how about the power? any idea before/after mapping??
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: ]
#757291
27/01/2009 10:16
27/01/2009 10:16
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
OP
Forum is my life
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OP
Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
|
Sorry if I´ve missed something here, but on a std car, isn't the Lambda supposed to as close to 1 (one) as possible? Which is 14:1 (air:fuel). In that case it should be quite safe?
Or is it a completely different matter on a turbo aspirated car? On mid-load anyway it should not be.. right? Lambda 1 is expressed as 14.7 : 1 for petrol cars. This is where the amount of oxygen exactly meets the correct amount of petrol for a complete burn. This is why modern cars have lambda sensors to keep idle and part throttle applications at 14.7 i.e. stoich, which allows good emissions control especially in conjunction with a catalytic converter. In terms of making power, well the exact AFR depends on many things therefore it is very much application specific. What makes best power on one car doesn't always work for another therefore realistically you don't tune to an AFR but tune to the application. In a race car setting you would have access to a lot more information including injector duration, spark timng, and EGTs for each individual cylinder to get peak torque for every conceivable load/rpm point. With a road car, well we don't have the time or facilities to screw every last newton metre out of the car. Indeed we don't want to, but we do want to get fairly close with safety as the overiding concern. So in terms of what works for a street car. Well a normally aspirated car under full load would generally see 12-12.5 afr, when tuning you may lean this out to around 13 to achieve some gains coupled with better ignition timing. A boosted car generally makes best power between 11-12 afr, again it depends on many things e.g. amount of boost, inlet temps, octane etc. Obviously engine design impacts on the above greatly e.g. cam profiles, compression ratio, squish band, volumetric efficiency, headers, back pressure... the list goes on. Of course, at any given time you can only tune what's in front of you, so the goal is to make it work better.
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Trappy]
#757473
27/01/2009 14:17
27/01/2009 14:17
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MABR
Unregistered
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MABR
Unregistered
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I've been looking forward to seeing the results of a Fleamap on a standard car. Get it on the rollers pronto Carphone! Ditto - as my first post.
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: ]
#757507
27/01/2009 15:05
27/01/2009 15:05
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Per
Unregistered
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Per
Unregistered
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Flea - thanks for that clarifying!
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Flea]
#761746
01/02/2009 23:44
01/02/2009 23:44
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Bigtop
Unregistered
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Bigtop
Unregistered
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i think i need to get my coupe done! so roughly, what sort of increase in power could be expected on a decatted chipped coupe on 1.2bar?
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: Nigel]
#764969
04/02/2009 21:50
04/02/2009 21:50
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_Tom_
Unregistered
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_Tom_
Unregistered
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Out of interest, how much are these mappings affected by temperature? Will it still be accurate at the height of summer?
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Re: Standard 20vt Remap
[Re: ]
#764981
04/02/2009 22:00
04/02/2009 22:00
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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The ECU has air temp, coolant & baro compensation tables as standard the remap will not affect these values so summer or winter it will be fine.
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