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Powerline internet extender
#1493876
14/06/2014 19:52
14/06/2014 19:52
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
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A couple of years ago, I bought a Devolo dlan 200 AV to extend the internet in our house at the time. It has proven a pretty fine purchase in every house since, including our current casa, which has the broadband router near the dish on the top floor and the extender gives us wifi on the ground floor and in the basement where we work. The NAS is also cabled to the extender downstairs. All fine and dandy. Except... Quite often the green LED indicator for broadband signal strength turns orange or even red, indicating (as it would) that the speed is decreasing to an almost unusable point. If I take my ipad upstairs and connect to the router directly, it's fine, with the full 10meg, but for some reason, the powerline connection is up and down like Leicester City. Also, it is definitely the broadband side not the wifi as the connection to the Devolo network remains strong.
There seems to be no correlation with devices connected, as the signal can be weak or strong whether I'm alone in the house or whether MrsC and stepson Minor are using any or all of their half dozen internet-enabled gadgets.
Can any technically minded person suggest any outside cause for this problem? Firmware on the Devolo kit? Other interference from our house or the neighbours on the power circuits? Overheating of the extender? All ideas welcome, as it is a bloody pain having to lug my laptop up 4 flights of stairs to work when it stops working. I'd be prepared to consider buying a new extender, if necessary, so suggestions on that front would be welcome too...
Many thanks, as ever...
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1493890
14/06/2014 20:58
14/06/2014 20:58
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,086 South Cambs
Barmybob
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In the UK the Brown & blue A/C wires are connected to the sockets the SAME way and plugs ONLY fit one way.
Not sure on individual EU nations wiring but I would have thought they too would wire all sockets to a similar standard. Plugs however can be fitted 180 degrees out. Not really a big issue for an appliance but it could be for routing signals.
So, are your plugs both the same way, have you tried fitting one of them the opposite way?
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Barmybob]
#1493896
14/06/2014 21:09
14/06/2014 21:09
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,086 South Cambs
Barmybob
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If that doesn't work it might be an idea to go for WiFi repeater / extender rather than power line type?
Or, run cat 5 to another router, if you have a spare.
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1493945
15/06/2014 01:25
15/06/2014 01:25
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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Powerline networking doesn't actually use a wired connection over the mains between the 2 points, it uses short wave radio, so is susceptible to and produces all manner of radio interference.
You could try different kit but it may just be that there's external interference.
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1493974
15/06/2014 10:42
15/06/2014 10:42
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,296 Sandhurst
Begbie
ex El Presidente
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Sandhurst
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Cordless phones and microwaves can play havoc with WiFi, so not entirely sure if it will be the same for the powerlines
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: ]
#1493977
15/06/2014 10:52
15/06/2014 10:52
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,855 Birmingham
benje
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
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Posts: 1,855
Birmingham
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Powerline networking doesn't actually use a wired connection over the mains between the 2 points, it uses short wave radio, so is susceptible to and produces all manner of radio interference.
It definitely does use the mains wiring. Can you try different sockets? No idea on Spanish wiring regs etc but ideally you want to find 2 sockets on the same circuit giving you the shortest route.
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: benje]
#1493979
15/06/2014 11:05
15/06/2014 11:05
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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It definitely does use the mains wiring.
They use the mains wiring only as an aerial to transmit via short wave radio, powerline adapters will communicate perfectly with no physical connection between them. Couple of good demo videos here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfUEEhmHYY www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-Ge61BXsaQ
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: benje]
#1494009
15/06/2014 14:07
15/06/2014 14:07
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GrahamL
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GrahamL
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That's not how they're designed to work though, they are designed to be physically connected. They do not use the mains wiring as an antenna intentionally, it's merely a side effect of sending high frequency signals down unshielded mains cables.
Watch the videos. There's no radio interference when he uses a normal ethernet network connection and the ethernet cables are no more shielded than the mains wiring, probably even less so. Also, in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xAxvJILDIEhe shows a local radio transmission preventing data transfer on the powerline adapters even when they're both connected to the mains wiring as intended. If the radio transmission and reception of the powerline adapters is purely coincidental and they actually communicate fully over the mains wiring then why does a nearby radio transmission jam the connection and doesn't jam a normal ethernet connection? Even if this is all just coincidence and bad shielding of cables it shows that the marketing of these adapters as "wired networking" is misleading as no other form of wired networking is susceptible to radio interference like these powerline adapters are. In reality they are effectively wireless, in that they can clearly communicate wirelessly and are susceptible to wireless (radio) interference.
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: ]
#1494024
15/06/2014 14:55
15/06/2014 14:55
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,855 Birmingham
benje
My life on the forum
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Posts: 1,855
Birmingham
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That's not how they're designed to work though, they are designed to be physically connected. They do not use the mains wiring as an antenna intentionally, it's merely a side effect of sending high frequency signals down unshielded mains cables.
Watch the videos. There's no radio interference when he uses a normal ethernet network connection and the ethernet cables are no more shielded than the mains wiring, probably even less so. Cat5e (Normal Ethernet cable) use twisted pairs to eliminate the effects of interference and cross talk, along with differential signals, it's a lot less susceptible to interference than main cabling. The physical properties of the two signals are also different. Also, in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xAxvJILDIEhe shows a local radio transmission preventing data transfer on the powerline adapters even when they're both connected to the mains wiring as intended. If the radio transmission and reception of the powerline adapters is purely coincidental and they actually communicate fully over the mains wiring then why does a nearby radio transmission jam the connection and doesn't jam a normal ethernet connection? Even if this is all just coincidence and bad shielding of cables it shows that the marketing of these adapters as "wired networking" is misleading as no other form of wired networking is susceptible to radio interference like these powerline adapters are. In reality they are effectively wireless, in that they can clearly communicate wirelessly and are susceptible to wireless (radio) interference. You're not comparing apples with apples here though, Powerline adaptors are not simply turning the mains into a cat5 cable Ethernet network, they are taking a normal "Ethernet" signal, doing some clever things with it, putting it onto the mains cable, then decoding it the other side, and turning it back into a normal Ethernet signal that your PC understands. It's the "doing some clever things" bit that turns your mains cable into an antenna as a side effect. They really aren't designed to be wireless!
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494033
15/06/2014 16:28
15/06/2014 16:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,483 Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG
Club Treasurer Member 311
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And just to clarify, they use the earth connection only for the network signal. But in my experience, just like broadband, the advertised speeds are rarely attained, some of my 200 Mbps adapters struggle to reach 100. There's a "power packet" utility that tells you the speed that each adapter is achieving, and connecting across different circuits makes a noticeable difference.
1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus 2008 Ferrari F430 & 2017 Fiat 124 Spider
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494036
15/06/2014 17:09
15/06/2014 17:09
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,855 Birmingham
benje
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
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Posts: 1,855
Birmingham
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Benje and Graham, are we all agreed that regardless of whether extenders deliberately use the antenna effect, interference is still my enemy? Or might this debate suddenly open a window of hope whereby if I rub the extender socket with a ripe mango, it will work fine, all the time?
Apologies for taking it off topic somewhat. I'd try and ensure they are on the same circuit in your house first. It seems like the router is on the ground floor and the PC on the first? Are all the sockets in the house off one fuse/circuit breaker or are the floors on their own circuit? I'd be tempted to try different sockets first.
Last edited by benje; 15/06/2014 17:10.
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: benje]
#1494064
15/06/2014 20:30
15/06/2014 20:30
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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Cat5e (Normal Ethernet cable) use twisted pairs to eliminate the effects of interference and cross talk, along with differential signals, it's a lot less susceptible to interference than main cabling. True, but even if you took an old style coaxial (10base2) ethernet cable and cut it half way it wouldn't magically still work via wireless, unlike powerline networking when you disconnect the mains cabling between the adapters. Powerline networking may not be designed to be wireless but it has all the advantages and disadvantages of wireless and none of the advantages or disadvantages of wired, so for all intents and purposes it may as well be considered wireless. And for Jim's question, if he was assuming that external interference was unlikely be an issue due to powerline adapters using a "wired" connection (as with a standard wired ethernet system) I'm just pointing out that they are effectively wireless and therefore external interference is likely the source of the problem. Maybe I should have worded my original post differently to say it was "effectively" wireless.
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494077
15/06/2014 21:19
15/06/2014 21:19
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617 SE Essex
charlie_croker
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
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Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
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OK, first of all, make sure there are no RCD's on the plugs you are using, also avoid any PSU type adapters on that circuit and if you can, try to make sure the Powerline adapters are not on any trailing sockets. Mobile phone chargers apparently are a major cause of interference. If the reduction in signal is intermittent then I would suggest something with an electric motor, etc is causing interference, (washing machine, air conditioner etc). http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/la...k-speed?start=1
Last edited by charlie_croker; 15/06/2014 21:24.
Happy
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494295
16/06/2014 19:38
16/06/2014 19:38
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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^^ Looks promising, they claim it has "excellent" interference immunity, as opposed to "weak" for the powerline adapters.
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494337
16/06/2014 22:10
16/06/2014 22:10
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
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It seems that you can use the cabling for your TV aerial feed, which would be handy because on the top floor, where our router/modem is located, is also the box for our cable TV. So I could just put the master box in there and the other next to the TV itself 2 floors below. Then I think it would be a case of hooking up another router as a wifi extender. The problem we have is 2-fold; firstly, we rent the house, so we can't go adding cabling and secondly, our office is in the basement, 4 floors below the router, meaning we'd need a lot of cable if we did go that route. Also awkward is the fact that we need decent broadband on all levels.
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494355
16/06/2014 23:29
16/06/2014 23:29
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,086 South Cambs
Barmybob
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Je suis un Coupé
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I guess that you have tried altering your signal frequency in the router settings. It could be that you and your neighbour are on a similar setting.
Try all the way to the top, and if that doesn't work, all the way to the bottom.
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494392
17/06/2014 10:20
17/06/2014 10:20
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,086 South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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OK, maybe the units are just giving up?
This is almost exactly how my old Belkin router failed. A perfect wifi signal but an intermittent internet connection.
I replaced it with an ASUS and have enjoyed a rock solid connection, and significantly better wifi performance.
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: Powerline internet extender
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#1494933
20/06/2014 15:27
20/06/2014 15:27
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,603 Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell
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Interim solution; I went round every socket on the bottom 3 floors of the house, plugging in the extender slave plug. The basement is hopeless (1 spur socket daisy chained with about 6 extension cords. Luckily not powering anything bigger than a laptop). The lounge on the ground floor (where I had it plugged in when all this began) is the worst of all, the dining room almost as bad. However, on the floor above, I can get a decent signal and the broadband strength LED remains green. As the Wifi signal from the extender is pretty good, I can still get a reasonable connection at my desk in the basement and in the lounge. Although the signal is not at Max strength, the broadband is way stronger (6mb instead of barely 1), so it works better, if not exactly rapidly. It'll have to do until I can find a cheap way of running a better connection...
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