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Fallen out of love with Toyo...
#1423223
20/04/2013 23:54
20/04/2013 23:54
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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When I first bought my Sprinty coupe, back in 2003, it had worn-out Goodyear F1s on it, so I fitted some Toyo T1-Rs, on which I had heard good reports
Since then, I reckon I've probably bought about 25-30 pairs of T1-Rs and always been very pleased with the combination of grip, durability and price.
So, it was without blinking that I bought another set of four last month.... However, they have destroyed all of my very carefully considered handling improvements.
At first, I refused to believe it was the tyres, so in the last month or so, I've tried four different tracking settings (from parallel to -2mm) and four different camber settings (from -1 to -1.5). I've tried lots of different pressures and a few different damping settings and whilst I can feel differences, I still can't get back to the "planted" feel that I've enjoyed for so long
The car feels as though there's 10psi in all four tyres - all the precision has gone - I can't keep it in a straight line under power - I can't predict how it will behave in a bend and worst of all, I can't choose my line. Changes in direction at speed feel downright dangerous, with the car feeling like it has a hinge in the middle.
Weirdly, the grip is still there - in a constant-radius corner, when the load is stable, they feel just as good as normal
However, if you asked me to hit a drain cover on a fast (60+ mph) roundabout, I don't think I could, whereas before, I could have hit a pound coin - its truly awful
The only time I've had tyres this bad was when I fitted Toyo PX-4 - I could change lanes by using the throttle
I can only assume that Toyo have changed their construction methods, as the difference from the previous set is just amazing. Heck - I came third in my first TOTB using T1-Rs, while everyone else was on trackday tyres, so something MUST have changed
So - that's £360 down the drain - any recommendations? 215/40-17 or maybe 225/40-17 at a push
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423224
21/04/2013 00:04
21/04/2013 00:04
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,036 Carlisle
Rob40
Club Member 1717
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Club Member 1717
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,036
Carlisle
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I swear by the F1 Eagle. I've had every version since GSD2s and they just keep getting better. The latest asymmetric version is superb. Not the cheapest but you get what you pay for.
This is how it should have come out of Torino!
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423227
21/04/2013 00:18
21/04/2013 00:18
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617 SE Essex
charlie_croker
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
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Strange I just fitted T1Rs and no issues here, what manufacturing date are yours? date tyres made
Last edited by charlie_croker; 21/04/2013 00:21.
Happy
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423243
21/04/2013 01:53
21/04/2013 01:53
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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@ charlie, but what sort of power do you have?
@ Nigel, I agree with Rob in the fact you get what you pay for. I always thought you would have been the same in the thought process after all the mods and tinkering with your car, im sure I've even seen you post before "buy cheap, buy twice" which I totally agree with.
The Toyo are even in the mid range tyre not the premium. When your running good power like yourself, Rob or like I was you need to be in the premium range.
Continental sport contact 5p or Michelin pilot super sport are definitely in the top 3 tyres out at the minute plus I have heard very good reports about the tyre above mentioned by Rob.
Good luck with it all and let us know how you get on!
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423285
21/04/2013 14:40
21/04/2013 14:40
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617 SE Essex
charlie_croker
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
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what manufacturing date are yours? Week 39, 2012 Interesting mine are week 22/2011 (though fitted last month by Event-Tyres), I am happy with mine, they felt better than the Pirellis I had before. Maybe they changed the compound? It may be worth emailing Toyo.co.uk Contact details for their opinion?
Happy
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: charlie_croker]
#1423299
21/04/2013 16:17
21/04/2013 16:17
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proccy
Unregistered
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proccy
Unregistered
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I've switched from Toyo's to Continental Sport Contact and they feel better to me, although i don't have the driving experience at speeds or tracks that you do Nigel. They're expensive but i get a healthy discount of a mate who's a Director there
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: technics]
#1423464
22/04/2013 12:51
22/04/2013 12:51
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DaveM
Unregistered
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DaveM
Unregistered
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ad08's? Reasonable tread pattern and Full tread depth - I've gone through some pretty terrifying standing water at full pelt and they were fine. Certainly not as bad as cups or the barely legal ditch finders most people on the roads drive around with. I'd not chance it in snow and ice, but thats just me, maybe they'd be okay. I've got a set of winters so never had chance to try. I would say, regarding the t1-r, I've always felt they were terrible on 16's, just too floppy. Maybe they changed the design so that even the lower profile 17s now have an unacceptable amount of sidewall flex too?
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423485
22/04/2013 14:19
22/04/2013 14:19
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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Interesting development, or maybe its just something I've never checked before Over the weekend, I played with tyre pressures - I started from the standard 39/32 and went for a drive. As expected, the car still felt horrible, so I returned to the garage to adjust. However, the pressures had risen to 45/35 in the relatively short (but spirited) drive, so I dropped them to 39/32 and went for another drive - much better, but still not right. This morning, I lifted from full throttle and had to dab the brakes while on a very gentle left-hander - almost lost the back end through lift-off oversteer, whereas I've previously done the same many times on the same piece of road without drama. The only difference with this set of tyres compared with all the other T1-Rs I've had is that these are nitrogen-filled (Kwik-fit used it and then tried to bill me for it - I refused to pay, but they declined to take it back.... ) I wonder if it makes a difference? Might try dropping all the pressure out and re-filling with air Either way, an email has been sent to Toyo to ask if there have been any changes in construction in the last year or so.
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423488
22/04/2013 14:33
22/04/2013 14:33
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Are you going to look into some premium branded tyres?
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423498
22/04/2013 15:11
22/04/2013 15:11
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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I was just about to order a set of T1R's this morning after being told my supplier can get me a new set in 215-40-16 for £280.00 all in delivered. So thanks for posting this up What to go for now after being in my dads 2.4l on the asymmetric 2's, and being blown away by the level of grip and cornering performance in the wet and dry i would have those tyres in a heart beat. But nobody can get me them in 16" at all without going to a 50 profile! I'll wait to see what you go for Nigel and I'll be eager to hear your feed back
Last edited by F1ANG; 22/04/2013 15:12.
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423499
22/04/2013 15:23
22/04/2013 15:23
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,483 Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG
Club Treasurer Member 311
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Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,483
Lightwater, Surrey
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Nitrogen in tyres is just for rich people who are too lazy to check the pressures regularly, neither of which sounds like you Nigel? I'm working on a project at the moment looking at petrochemical plant configurations to produce various synthetic rubbers (butyl rubber or IIR isobutyl-isoprene-rubber, and polybutadiene rubber), both of which are used in tyres. The rubber producers/technologists are now aiming for premium formulations to get higher scores and noticved more by the new euro-tyre-label checking consumers, looking for A-B on wet grip and braking, and low noise. When shopping for tyres recently, my previous buying attitude of going with brands I had at least heard of (and a nice tread design ) before went out of the window, and I bought some bizarrely names tyred with "high scores" relative to prices (not for the Coupe, I hasten to add). The new tyre label rules came into force from Nov 2012 but manufacturers would have been gearing up for up several months in advance. But of course the sad thing is that the manufacturers carry out their own tests, it's not done by any central tyre testing body. Anyway, my point is that it's quite likely that tyre formulations will have changed recently...
1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus 2008 Ferrari F430 & 2017 Fiat 124 Spider
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: ]
#1423501
22/04/2013 15:50
22/04/2013 15:50
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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I was just about to order a set of T1R's this morning after being told my supplier can get me a new set in 215-40-16 for £280.00 all in delivered. So thanks for posting this up What to go for now after being in my dads 2.4l on the asymmetric 2's, and being blown away by the level of grip and cornering performance in the wet and dry i would have those tyres in a heart beat. But nobody can get me them in 16" at all without going to a 50 profile! 215/40 16 is all wrong - far too small - you need either 205/50 or 225/45
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: DaveG]
#1423503
22/04/2013 15:54
22/04/2013 15:54
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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Nitrogen in tyres is just for rich people who are too lazy to check the pressures regularly, neither of which sounds like you Nigel? Correct - normally check mine every couple of weeks or so Anyway, my point is that it's quite likely that tyre formulations will have changed recently... Interesting.... it may be a placebo effect, but I'd swear that this set is quieter than any other T1-Rs I've run before - maybe they've softened the compound which in turn is giving me "block hysteresis" (tread blocks moving around) - this was certainly the problem with the Toyo PX-4 that I had for a very short time.
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423509
22/04/2013 16:10
22/04/2013 16:10
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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I was just about to order a set of T1R's this morning after being told my supplier can get me a new set in 215-40-16 for £280.00 all in delivered. So thanks for posting this up What to go for now after being in my dads 2.4l on the asymmetric 2's, and being blown away by the level of grip and cornering performance in the wet and dry i would have those tyres in a heart beat. But nobody can get me them in 16" at all without going to a 50 profile! 215/40 16 is all wrong - far too small - you need either 205/50 or 225/45 Thanks for the info, this was "apparently" all i could have in the T1R's? I've heard a few people using the tyre size 215/45/16 also, im guessing this is a bad idea also? Just trying to increase the availability.
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: ]
#1423787
23/04/2013 21:47
23/04/2013 21:47
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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Thanks for the info, this was "apparently" all i could have in the T1R's? Sounds to me like someone is trying to sell you some tyres they have in stock, rather than what is actually available I have just checked on Toyo's website and as I suspected, 205/50 16 and 225/45 16 are listed as available Let me know if you can't get hold of them - I most certainly can (through Motormech)
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423788
23/04/2013 21:48
23/04/2013 21:48
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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225/45 is a pretty common size - you should have no problems finding a decent tyre in that profile
However, don't be fooled by the extra width - if you can get 205/50 cheaper then you should go for it - the wider tyre offers no more grip - the only noticeable difference is aesthetic Being totally honest i did always have it in my head that a wider tyre did mean more grip, and as a result of being wider they would be more skitterish (if thats a word) in the wet but would make up for it in the dry, or so i thought. But if there's one person to listen to on here regarding the handling of a fiat coupe it's you lol, so i won't question it And thats just the thing i am struggling to find tyres in 225-45-16 well anything decent anyway, so after much trying to find the right tyres in the right size with a number of suppliers, I've decided to bite the bullet and compromise by going for 215-45-16 in the dunlop sportmax (the v-rated 150mph ones) fingers crossed there ok, or it will be back to the drawing board Thanks for the info Nigel
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423789
23/04/2013 21:52
23/04/2013 21:52
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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Thanks for the info, this was "apparently" all i could have in the T1R's? Sounds to me like someone is trying to sell you some tyres they have in stock, rather than what is actually available I have just checked on Toyo's website and as I suspected, 205/50 16 and 225/45 16 are listed as available Let me know if you can't get hold of them - I most certainly can (through Motormech) Sorry I've just read this after writing my last post. Hmm....Sounds about right! However you have put me off the T1R's now And also thanks for taking the time to check that, i should of really
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: ]
#1423792
23/04/2013 22:05
23/04/2013 22:05
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,370
Staffordshire
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I've decided to bite the bullet and compromise by going for 215-45-16 in the dunlop sportmax (the v-rated 150mph ones) fingers crossed there ok, or it will be back to the drawing board Sorry - back to the drawing board it is - 'V' rated is inadequate for a 20VT - you need Z rated as a minimum, with W for modded cars, with either a 87 or 89 load rating Insurance companies are getting quite hot on under-specced tyres - if you had an accident with V rated tyres on, you may find the insurance company tries to absolve themselves of any liability - not worth the risk IMHO
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Re: Fallen out of love with Toyo...
[Re: Nigel]
#1423803
23/04/2013 22:52
23/04/2013 22:52
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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F1ANG
Unregistered
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For gods sake, this has gone on for weeks! Well I'm glad to have your advice. Is there any tyre you've tried and tested in 225-45-16 thats available and you would recommend? Or do you think i should just go for the T1R's? I mean my coop isn't set up like yours, the only handling mods i currently have are the bilstein/eibach combo and a front upper strut brace (I'm working on it ) so I'm thinking maybe the change you feel as advanced as your setup is, maybe the average enthusiastic coupe drive wouldn't notice? Thanks again.
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