Fiat Coupe Club UK
went on the rollers today
Posted By: Anonymous
went on the rollers today - 14/10/2006 23:12
Hey. Decided to get my boost controller set up on the rollers today. Got the graph but its a bit pants.
Basically i got 278bhp at the wheels. which is about 320 at the fly.
It was running rich around 10-11. Was 1.4 midrange then, 1.1 towards redline. Enough fuel all the time.
Inlet temps were a bit high at 50c but the guy did mention it was hot in the place.
Full boost at 3000rpm. No flat points i dont think.
Advice needed :
Should i get Graham L to take some of the fuel out of the chip across the range to make it run less rich?
Should i consider replacing the intercooler with one in better condition?
Any other options?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 14/10/2006 23:27
Which chip was that with?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 14/10/2006 23:29
Gtech 2.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 00:36
what mods u got again? 320 at the fly sounds good ... much more than that an you're into forged internals etc.. Suba got 340 with a Unichip, so I wouldn't be complaining with 320 and a plug n play chip.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 00:39
I think my best option now, would be to ask Graham to make a Gtech 1 chip with ignition advance.
That way it will have reduced fueling and still have the ignition advance.
Think that will work?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 00:44
the problem is that he'll have to guess at the parameters ... u can't beat a custom map. I think Perfect Touch can do on the fly mapping, which might be a little bit cheaper than a Unichip. I'm in the same boat as u.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 00:49
I dont think its worth it. Thats my opinion. I reckon that if i check my fueling enough, with minor adjustments to the Gtech chips i reckon i could crack it suffieciently. The fact is that several people on the forum found little difference with the unichip from the Gtech chip. So it cant be that far out.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 00:52
i know what u mean. i'm back with the standard chip now and it's fuelling ok ... just missing the ignition advance of the gtec
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 00:59
Yeh, thats why im gonna get the mixture of Gtech 1 and 2 hopefully.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 01:01
if graham will do u one, i'll have one too.
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 01:02
A bag of chips then, if you will.
Posted By: Nigel
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 01:05
The trouble is that you don't need ignition advance or fuelling cut right across the rev range - you need it in specific areas only
There's only two ways to do this - Unichip or custom map
There's a correct statement above - with fairly well-modded cars, a Unichip often makes very little difference to peak power. However, it does ensure correct running acorss the entire rev range AND it quite often makes quite a bit of difference to off-boost performance and responsiveness.
There's a Unichip for sale in the Parts For Sale section, and there's also a chance that my Unichp might be available if I decide to go for a custom map later this month
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 01:05
i've got a bag of chips in my ashtray and i dunno which one is which
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 01:12
Quote:
The trouble is that you don't need ignition advance or fuelling cut right across the rev range - you need it in specific areas only
There's only two ways to do this - Unichip or custom map
There's a correct statement above - with fairly well-modded cars, a Unichip often makes very little difference to peak power. However, it does ensure correct running acorss the entire rev range AND it quite often makes quite a bit of difference to off-boost performance and responsiveness.
There's a Unichip for sale in the Parts For Sale section, and there's also a chance that my Unichp might be available if I decide to go for a custom map later this month
good point, look at suba's unichip setup. one at low boost with loads of ignition advance low down to improve "driveability" and the second map at high boost (less ignition advance) and loads of top end power.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 02:33
Well, i think with the proper misture i could have NEAR unichip performance without the price tag!
Ross
Posted By: Jamiepm
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 04:00
Ross remember what I've said about flowrates. 320bhp is good for your set up, and as long as you don't mess with boost you'll have a relaible motor that will beat most things anyway!!
Jamie
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 05:43
good luck ross with that power you need to have good fueling.
ask yer self this question how many unichip cars have lost a pot?
hope graham can sort a chip for you
Kev
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 14:32
Quote:
good look ross with that power you need to have good fueling.
ask yer self this question how many unichip cars have lost a pot?
hope graham can sort a chip for you
Kev
Dunno how many....? I'm scheduled to go back on the rollers in one weeks time. So i have 4 choices.....
1. do nuthing and run it again.
2. run higher boost on this setup (1.5 midrange and 1.2 redline.
3. get a gtech 1 chip.
4. Ask graham to make a mixture between the Gtech1 fueling and the Gtech 2 ignition advance.
I defintely was running too much fuel, but the guy said it was a good thing to prevent detonation..... but i think it was in the 10's. I was sure the high 11's low 12's was a better option.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 16:46
A Gtec2 with Gtec1 base fuelling map wouldn't work, would be even richer than the standard Gtec2.
Might be possible to back off the base fuelling map of a Gtec2 though, I'll look into it...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 16:49
Brilliant dude. Just a little bit tho, cause dont want the opposite problem. Check your pm's.
Ross
Posted By: Begbie
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 18:00
Quote:
Well, i think with the proper misture i could have NEAR unichip performance without the price tag!
Ross
Ross
Simple bit of advice, you have spent so long without the car, dont scrimp and save on the last important bit. Do it once, do it right, get a custom map instead of relying on a simple P'n'P chip
Posted By: Flea
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 18:22
These are good results Ross, you are running some very strong useable power! Do you have your graphs as it will help to see the torque curve?
I don't think you should be dissapointed with 320bhp as you may find on another day you get 330bhp with just an extra 5lbs/ft at redline due temps, fueling etc. The key here is that your mods have achieved your goal and with a little more tweaking you'll be exactly where you want to be. I agree with the comments that you shouldn't scrimp on getting the fueling correct, that said, it is possible that a tweaked G-Tec could be perfect for your setup (it was on mine initially) so see what Graham can do for you... as long as you don't do any further mods!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 21:27
Not planning on any other mods at the moment.
See what grahaml comes back with at the moment.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 15/10/2006 21:44
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/h2ypr/rrgraph.jpgHere is my graph. Not as detailed as the one i had last time.
Ross
Posted By: Flea
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 02:13
OK I have extrapolated the torque and bhp curves from your graph and converted to a flywheel standard (17% loss) so that everyone has a better understanding of what it all means especially in comparison to other coupés
h2ypr's graph...Well that is some seriously impressive low down torque there Ross! Short of the hybrid turbos or nitrous, nothing comes even close to that spool up and torque delivery. The 28R coupled with headwork certainly appears to be doing the trick
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 02:25
Cool. Maybe im just being fussy!!
You can thank Barbz for his advice and the engine he sent me for all the power i have!!! He is the man and i would highly recommend him to anyone wanting more power.
I still wanna try it with less fueling next week. Need to check with Graham L if its possible.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 02:33
Good job there!
Impressive torque curve
, another one or Barbz masterpieces
You could try a bit less fuelling, but it might be counter productive,.. just have to wait and see!
good luck!
joe
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 02:36
Thanks dude. At the end of the day im missing 2 mods.
Cams and chargecooling.
Both of which before christmas are outwith my budget.
So i can try the gtech1 and check the graph. If worse i can just replace the gtech 2 back in it.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 12:11
Lol. I'm booked for the rollers on sunday anyways, so i might aswell switch it to see if i can get something a bit more.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 13:39
I understand the "what if" theory better than most
but seriously those curves look fantastic - almost immediate torque that never tails off, peaks or spikes, and a steady building of power to the redline, suggesting that your turbo and ancillaries are all perfectly matched in your setup (at least to my amateur eye). Really looks ideal to me and must be fantastic to drive.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 13:47
Quote:
OK I have extrapolated the torque and bhp curves from your graph and converted to a flywheel standard (17% loss) so that everyone has a better understanding of what it all means especially in comparison to other coupés
h2ypr's graph...
Well that is some seriously impressive low down torque there Ross! Short of the hybrid turbos or nitrous, nothing comes even close to that spool up and torque delivery. The 28R coupled with headwork certainly appears to be doing the trick
fccuk me that's good! what are your mods again?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 15:26
gt28r, headwork, evo 6 fmic, 3" turbo back custom exhaust system etc.
Im gonna stick the Gtech1 in on sunday i think. Barbz said if im running well rich then the gtech1 will take enough off to get to nearer the 350bhp mark. I want 300bhp at the wheels and from speaking to certain people, i think its perfectly attainable on my setup.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 15:31
On my recent RR run, they tried the standard chip, GTEC1 and GTEC1 HF. The standard chip fuelled "best" apparently (unfortunately I don't have AFR graphs) and was still rich (down to 10.6). This was at low boost (due to a knackered clutch).
Posted By: Nigel
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 17:23
you'll struggle to get 350bhp on a GT28R and if you DO get near it, you'll probably lose a load of torque, which will make the car feel slower to drive
Stay with what you've got - its probably as quick on the road as a 350+ bhp GT28RS-equipped Coupe
I'd LOVE a torque curve like that!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 17:33
I can't stop looking at that damn graph!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 18:55
Come on Flea, lets get the spaghetti chart of all the cars up!!
and can you bung on the turbos beside the names please :-)
Joe
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 19:16
Quote:
Quote:
Well, i think with the proper misture i could have NEAR unichip performance without the price tag!
Ross
Ross
Simple bit of advice, you have spent so long without the car, dont scrimp and save on the last important bit. Do it once, do it right, get a custom map instead of relying on a simple P'n'P chip
Utterly agree with Begbie here. Stop messing about and get it mapped properly!
You don't need Cams, or a chargecooler, or aquamist map on your set up - spend the money on mapping. I have none of these + a spec very similar to yours - and I can get 344bhp at 1.3 bar - overboosting to 1.35 (more boost gave me only a tiny gain), so I doubt pushing it to 1.5 bar midrange with help you much. I run 1.15 bar at redline.
Looking at your graph your car peaks at 6,000 and then flatlines to the redline. You could build more I would have thought.
Coops dont generally run well into the 12's fuelling wise. My car runs 11.5 - the extra fuel can be used to run more advance and get more power on a custom map.
here's my graph to compare a mapped vs unmapped car with a very similar spec for ease of reference:
torque:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/perfectmap2.jpg
Power:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/perfectmap1.jpg
Worth noting that your car is well ahead until over 5,250 rpm. Not sure why your torque drops off like that - or why it builds so damn well!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 20:58
It drops so much due to overfuelling!!!! Been in contact with Graham L and Barbz and we have a plan of action. Watch this space for my results from Sundays Rolling Road session.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 21:44
good job Ross.
.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 16/10/2006 21:46
Quote:
good job Ross.
.
Thanks.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 01:49
Been looking at my graph again.
http://www.fiat-coupe.info/images/rr_results/h2ypr.gifThe point at just after 3000rpm that the torque stops harshly rising, is the point on my old graph (before my engine blew) where the gtech2 is dumping loads of fuel in for when boost is comming in. Also when the torque drops later in the rev range, is where the boost is stop being held till and the fuelling is increased to deal with the higher revs. I reckpn fueling is seriously holding me back on this.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 10:54
LOL, yeah that's like SO holding you back. Chuck the graph in the bin and go out for a drive.
Posted By: Begbie
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 14:16
I personally dont think the fuelling is holding you back, people say that overfuelling too much can be a drop in 20 bhp, but has anyone actually proved it on here? Not that i can recall, i also have my power graphs at home showing what happens when you run exteremly lean (like 1.06 on the lamda value) and still make the same bhp as you do with the correct fuelling.
The reason the torque drops could be anything from smaller exhaust housing, exhaust manifold, not enough lift on the valves, cams etc...
Posted By: Jamiepm
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 14:46
Agreed the GT28R is probably at the end of its effeciency island.Even on larger units the general trend is that torque starts to drop after 6,000 rpms which suggest the restriction lies elsewhere. My opinion on messing with the fuelling will mean you'll ending up blowing the engine by running lean. Running rich gives a degree of safety and this can never be a bad thing
Jamie
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 15:06
h2ypr, I've been looking at your RR printout with some detail.
It is worth noting that this was a cold power run, and that they loaded up the rollers quite high.
What that means, is that the resistance of the rollers was high to acceleration so the RR run was longer than most.
By doing this ,it will artificially give you greater spool up, a bit like accelerating in 5th gear, rather than 3rd, when you will see noticeable torque/accelreation far earlier in the rev range.
It also means that the car will be on boost for longer and this explains the higher than expected charge temperature readings.
So with being a different rolling road, and the high loading, its hard to make comparative assessment to other RR's.
@Begbie,.. I was losing 20bhp due to running too rich at one of my PTS remaps,.. got all the graphs to prove it as well
However, I do agree, that you are taking quite a risk, for a very small gain here, you don't have any other form of protection, and whuilst it might be ok, in the colder weather ,come thrashing about in summer, you could end up with a dead engine
...just be careful, you really are better with a unichip,... I know about the cost, but you are at a cost and tuning level that justifies it.
Joe
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 15:19
Right here is the bombshell.
Unichip is not suited for the Fiat Coupe, hence i will never get one fitted.
The ECU has like 20 fuelling maps, and the unichip only changes one of these. As Nigel has found out, any variation in standard running and the ECU changes to a different map to maintain running.
Having spoke to 2 different Rolling Roads who dont supply unichips, they say that using a plug and play chip, which works in accordance with the ecu, is a better option than the unichip.
The said the next step up is something like DTA or a MOTEC.
Marcus aint running a unichip, and look at the power he has.
Its just not for me im afraid. After hearing horror stories about Dastek, i'll try this method.
@ Doctorfrag
Your right, both the Rolling Road, Graham L and Barbz all agreed that knocking the fueling down slightly will produce extra power. Im not gonna take it above 11.5 afr midrange, so that i can allow for higher at the redline.
Ross
Posted By: Flea
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 15:39
Ross, I don't know why you are so spooked by the Unichip but your understanding of how it works is not quite right. There are a large number of coupes running with a Unichip, some for many years, all without issue and most importantly correct fueling. If like most you also decide to keep tuning then you will need to be able to modify your fueling to accomodate, the Unichip is ideal for this situation.
Nigel's issues are due to running larger injectors which the standard ecu cannot cope with. The Unichip has successfully allowed Nigel to run correct fueling in open loop, it is simply closed loop where the problem lies.
In an ideal world it would be better to have a perfectly mapped eprom but this is something that nobody has been able to provide up to now. Re Markus, he uses an adjustable fuel regulator to tweak fueling but ultimately also overfuels a fair bit but this is, as Jamie says, a safer option to go with as it allows you to run big boost and keep everything in check.
There are no horror stories on here relating to the Unichip... certainly not at the 300-370bhp level of tune.
Posted By: Begbie
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 15:57
Quote:
In an ideal world it would be better to use have a perfectly mapped eprom but this something that nobody has been able to provide up to now
Has anyone actually spoken with this chap? If you read the live mapping bit im sure he could do a coupe. Actually a slight scroll down the page shows an ECU using the same style chip as the 20vt's and would imagine the cost to be less than the unichip and mapping
Posted By: Jamiepm
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 16:29
Beggars,
I asked them sometime ago and they won't touch a Coupe and unfortunately have blown certain engines whilst 'live mapping'.
Jamie
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 16:44
I was about to say i would give them a call about their live mapping as they arent far from me or busa
but ill see what they say, how long ago did you call them Jamie?
Posted By: Jamiepm
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 16:49
Will,
It was this year and I got Busa (Kev) to follow through for me as they are very close to him.
CHeers Jamie
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 17:06
http://60gp.ovh.net/~motorspo/pages/Livemappingextract.htmJust spoke to a guy called Stuart and he at least knew it was a Bosch Motronic unit and he has done a 16vt before now as well.
The link above kind shows what they do but he said youd be looking at about £350 or less if there are no cold start issues and about a day of labour or less. I talked to him about the Gtecs and agreed it would be better to bring along one or two as the better the base map the easier it would be for them to map ontop of but he sounded confident it could be done and that they had done other 5cylinders before, presumably the T5/2.5T units and the like.
Think i will give them a try when i get my coop back and the moola together
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 17:16
The pics on that site show what i am certain is an ECU very very like the coops one, probably from another car though but certainly near identical to what we have.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 19:15
Quote:
Agreed the GT28R is probably at the end of its effeciency island.Even on larger units the general trend is that torque starts to drop after 6,000 rpms which suggest the restriction lies elsewhere. My opinion on messing with the fuelling will mean you'll ending up blowing the engine by running lean. Running rich gives a degree of safety and this can never be a bad thing
Jamie
Jamie - I have this turbo and if I raised the rev limit I'd get more power, despite the torque dropping off....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 19:22
Ross - you've mentioned fuelling at the top end being an issue. I got the biggest gains from my last unichip map from mapping the ignition advance rather than the fuelling - which was richer than it could have been on purpose for safety.
Do you still have the V-band adaptor for your turbo? if so then this would explain the 'restriction' at the top end.
I know barbz is not a massive fan of the unichip, rather road testing with a wide band lamda, and tweaking the fuel pressure or boost profile with an apexi - but with this method you can't control the ignition advance without guessing, asking GrahamL to do you a chip, and then plonking the car on a rolling road to see if it detonates. With a unichip you can tweak it up + then retard it by a few degrees when you hear it detting.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 17/10/2006 21:02
Vband??????? I have a 5 stud flange onto a 3" custom downpipe. I have already got another chip from Graham L today and will be using it on sunday to check how it affects things. If it runs slightly lean then i can go back and tweak it again. If its still running "slightly" rich (i.e. around 11.5-12) then i would be happy with that as a comprimise for the moment.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 18/10/2006 01:18
Right. Got a Gtech2 with less fuelling installed today by Graham L to test it. Drove it 1 mile from Grahams to my work. Got out my work and drove 14 miles home and im immediately noticing the difference. Car feels more responsive low down and there is no sudden surge of power at 2000rpm. The car previously was flat up to 2000rpm when it kinda kicked in more. Now its progessively accelerating up to and beyond 2000rpm. Defo feels better straight away.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 18/10/2006 01:32
lots of advance and leaner fuelling, make sure the RR operator has det cans ... best of luck. btw, what grade fuel are you using?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 18/10/2006 01:51
V-power - 99ron. Its all this new engine has ran on.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 18/10/2006 23:49
Quote:
Vband??????? I have a 5 stud flange onto a 3" custom downpipe. I have already got another chip from Graham L today and will be using it on sunday to check how it affects things. If it runs slightly lean then i can go back and tweak it again. If its still running "slightly" rich (i.e. around 11.5-12) then i would be happy with that as a comprimise for the moment.
Ross
Your car should still be making more power at the redline when you get it right then - by this time I'd be interested to know how much you have spent on rolling road tests and different chips - not to mention your own time.
Not being rude at all Ross - but I reckon your a bit potty going down this route at your stage of tunning mate....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 00:02
Have to agree with your last comment Si
. I've been reading this thread with interest, and my recent visit to Perfect Touch has only served to enhance my feelings.
My car was detting above 5500rpm, and the Unichip has enabled this to be removed (can only be a good thing!). Rob at PT has then optimised the ignition advance and fuelling for both low and high boost maps on my EBC, and I can actually feel the difference that this has made on the road. The car is now much more responsive, as it is no longer having to struggle with the old settings that were effectively fighting against each other.
Ross - I know that you are keen to pursue the route of finding the right plug and play chip for your car, but surely all the RR time spent trying the various permutations is going to add up? If you make the car mappable by fitting a Unichip, you can get this done in one session and know that it is spot on for your particular modifications. Surely you don't want to risk all the time and money that you have invested in your Coupe this year
.
Phil
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 00:16
I understand what you are saying, but the money isnt that much.
I bought the Gtech2 originally for from graham as most did.
This rolling road session was to check running and setup boost controller.
So far i have bought a revised chip (not yet paid for) and am going to a club rolling road event to check this costing £26. Now, im practically out the price of a chip so far. So im not wasting money to be honest. My results this sunday will decide what action i must take.
I dont believe there is much risk involved because im going to monitor the fuelling change with the rolling road. I will not lean it out too much.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 00:49
It's your choice Ross, but are you sure that they will be checking the fuelling for £26? Sounds like they might just be doing power runs for that, although you'd like to think that they will be monitoring fuelling and detonation
.
I was keen on the plug and play route for a while, but the compromises that have to be made lead me down the Unichip route when I starting getting too far away from a standard set up (well, that and Rog's Group Buy
!)
Phil
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 01:05
Hahah.
They are defintaley checking the fuelling. There is 32 cars getting done, so they are raking the money in. Its the same company that done my boost controller setup.
Ross
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 01:13
I'd be careful Ross, if they are doing 32 cars in one sitting then they aren't going to be too careful about monitoring the fueling and for det. They will be more interested in getting cars in and out quickly.
I know you like to save money and do things as cheap as possible but like everyone else who is trying (in vain) to give you some advice on this, I really would spend that extra £400 on a propper set up and map.
A plug in chip can never be anywhere near as accurate or correctly mapped for your car as a unichip or a live mapped ECU.
Have you thought about live mapping ? Slightly cheaper than the unichip but just as accurate, maybe even more accurate as its the ECU still doing the controlling.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 01:15
As i said i will be looking at options after sunday.
They will be checking the fuelling because i will be watchinh their AFR myself if neccesary.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 01:24
It is if you're wanting pub figures.
Posted By: Nigel
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 02:40
Quote:
and I can actually feel the difference that this has made on the road
This is what Perfect Touch are all about - they don't seem overly bothered with "caressing" an owner's ego with headline flywheel figures. They simply map the car to drive well on the road. They managed in an hour to sort what PTS couldn't in two seperate three hour visits. The subsequent problems I've had are down to my car, not Perfect Touch's mapping.
Detonation kills engines. If you can hear it, you literally have seconds left before something breaks or melts. Just because you can't hear it doesn't mean its not detting. The fact that at least two well known cars with considerable mods have been found to be detting is worrying to say the least.
My honest recommendation is that a Unichip is what you need to have any confidence in your engine's longevity
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 03:59
They have det cans to check if its detting.
I have other problems tho.... lost a clip from the gear lingaes and now i cant get 1st 2nd or 5th. Need to see if Fiat have any in stock or get it delivered for friday. Also, need to get the bearing that the power steering pump sits in replaced aswell. Anyone know the prices and availability of these?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 04:01
Carl has to be your best bet Ross.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 04:03
Really want new bearing tho, as carl is unhappy with providing 2nd hand one.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 04:11
Good point. Well your local dealership
should be able to get it next day delivery.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 04:13
Yeh if they still make the part!!!! Hahaha. I'll find out tommorow.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 21:25
Got the gear linkage clip from a punto (same part number) but the guy couldnt get access from above so now im going to have to wait till he puts it on the ramps (some time tonight) .
The bearing that i need is £40 from fiat. Total ripoff. Need to reconsider "when" i can afford it.
Said there is still a slight noise (didnt specify but i think it will be the pads vibrating, as it squeeks badly.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 21:59
But surely if your bearing fails this could lead to a nasty end for your engine no?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 22:10
possibly as it would take the aux belt and then take out the cambelt. i was lucky when my ac compressor ate itself up and spat the belt out adn the cambelt was fine...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 19/10/2006 22:17
Oh yeah. Never really thought of that actually.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 21/10/2006 20:13
Phoned rog and he said the bearing is a split bearing which means it can be pulled apart and cleaned out and re-greased, so as to stop the noise.
As for the rolling road session the plot thickens.
The graph was right. I was running 23.3 psi mid range, as the guy said it was safe to do so. So there ya go.
Also he said there was definately no detontation and that my co2 emmisons were 10% above.
I asked him how this related to AFR, and managed to get the figure of between 10-10.5 throughout the rev range. So im running mega rich.
So GrahamL has made me a chip with "significantly" less fueling to address the problem, but still reckons it will run rich (which i kinda want anyways)
I'll find out tommorow exactly how this other chip compares and also get the boost settings checked again to make sure its running sweet as a nut.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 21/10/2006 21:52
1.6 bar? I hope no one blames the chip when your engine goes bang!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 21/10/2006 23:52
Hahah. Well i'll get them to check it. Probably reduce it myself anyways.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 03:03
Good luck tomorrow Ross, hope everything goes smoothly.
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 03:14
All the best Wossy!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 16:42
Good luck
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 22:28
Right just back. The fuelling went from 10% over c02 to 8% over c02. So if anyone knows how to convert that to afr readings let me know!!!
I changed the boost from running 23.3 psi midrange to 22.3 psi midrange, as i wasnt comfortable with that amount of boost.
So i've dropped the over fuelling slightly but i've also dropped the boost aswell.
Ran 2 runs, as my mate didnt show so i used his, and on the second run i only got as far as 5000rpm before one of my boost pipes blew off. They repaired it but said there was practically no difference between the 2 runs so they decided not to run it again.
Got 283.3bhp at the wheels at 1.45 bar instead of 1.55.
So 5bhp increase with "slightly" reduced fuelling, and lower boost.
Im pretty happy with the result, but want to speak to GrahamL about reducing it further now im running the correct boost settings!!!
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 22:41
Hmm, don't wish to seem critical Ross, but a RR operator not knowing what the fuelling figures mean in relation to AFR would hardly fill me with confidence
. I'm afraid that I'm still of the opinion that you are trying to do this on the cheap, and just hope that you don't cause yourself some major expense by blowing more than just a hose whilst 'experimenting'!
I also can't help thinking that your set up could offer so much more than 283 at the wheels if you did things properly. Mine is running less headwork and a smaller diameter exhaust than yours, plus a smaller turbo, but I now have 289bhp at the wheels @ 1.35 bar thanks to optimised fuelling and ignition advance
.
Phil
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 23:01
Bearing mind you have cams. That would make a difference.
My fuelling is out yes. Well. He desribed 10% over as 10-10.5 afr. 8% over is about 10-5-11.
Think i may invest in an Adjustable Fuel Regulator instead.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 23:02
Quote:
but I now have 289bhp at the wheels @ 1.35 bar thanks to optimised fuelling and ignition advance .
Phil
Also, what size were the rollers you were running on?
Ross
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 23:18
Ross, everyones advice is still falling on deaf ears I see, hey its your car and your money so if its not running right then its your problem at the end of the day, we can only give you advice and you can ignore it if you want.
A fuel pressure regulator will adjust fuel for the entire rev range and not just the areas where you need it. You could have it running spot on at high revs but it could be lean as hell lower down the revs !
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 22/10/2006 23:32
Ok. I've contacted Dastek. Highwayman's results kinda show that tactful management may provide plentiful results.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 00:07
Glad to hear that you have decided to investigate other routes Ross
. You could also PM Rob from Perfect Touch (tweenierob) and see what his thoughts are on your situation. He is very knowledgeable about the Unichip and live mapping, and I'm sure that he could point you in the right direction
.
Phil
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 00:12
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/h2ypr/rrgraph2.jpgWell if he wants to offer me a discount, for travelling down south, then id consider it!!!
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 00:23
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 00:39
Coupe Power Ross
I bet that RX-7 owner felt silly losing to a re-shelled Tipo
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 00:49
He was actually brand new. Although from those comments on that rotary forum, most of them arent.
Ross
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 01:13
You got a link Ross?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 01:16
Link to what?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 01:27
Congrats Ross
king of the leaderboard!
Agree though, there's still more to come
Joe
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 01:39
Well actually, there was an evo that ran later. It was 360/380bhp and ran 297bhp at the wheels!!!
Anyone know how much Perfect Touch charge for a Unichip?
Ross
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 01:49
Its cheaper to get live mapping done Ross, your not paying for the equipment with live mapping.
From talking to Claudio at Perfect Touch I think its around £350 for a custom written chip.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 02:01
So thats better than a Unichip?
Ross
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 02:10
Well its your own ECU doing the controlling insted of the Unichip correcting what the ECU is saying.
Not many coupe's had it done yet but there are quite a few booked in for next month, Im in on the 15th Nov and there are 2 before me I think ?
Its going to be just like a getc chip only written for your cars indidvidual needs, real time, on the rollers
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 02:12
So that's what it is! I did ask and everyone ignored me
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 02:25
Oh right. So we are thinkin that its going to be better?
Ross
Posted By: came2dance
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 04:13
Well I don't know about all that techie stuff Ross but you coop looks, and sounds well good
Pity it's yeller
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 07:26
Ross, why wouldn't it be better than a unichip, its your own ECU doing the controlling and they would write you an entire new map for your coupe not just alter an existing map.
Posted By: strike4A
Re: went on the rollers today - 23/10/2006 09:54
Does anyone know the initial cost for a custom map and also the price for custom map remaps? Am trying to work out if it would be economically viable to ditch my unichip and go the custom map route.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 24/10/2006 16:20
Alright mate,
I know not strictly on topic, but where about is the rolling road you used? Was thinking of getting my boost controller set up at Dastek as i didnt think there were many options up here.
Cheers
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 25/10/2006 03:07
Quote:
Alright mate,
I know not strictly on topic, but where about is the rolling road you used? Was thinking of getting my boost controller set up at Dastek as i didnt think there were many options up here.
Cheers
Have you tried mv turbos in dunfermline?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: went on the rollers today - 25/10/2006 04:16
I went to AVA but i would recommend Falkland Performance in kirkcaldy. Kevin is a nice guy and will tell ya if anything is wrong.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/11/2006 21:52
What a sh*t day.
Firstly i managed to set fire to the engine.
Secondly the rr session wasnt good.
1. Got the adjustable pressure regulator fitted last night and got to falkland. They gave me a gauge and as me and my mate were fitting a spark happened somehow and the fuel ignited!!!
I thought the end of my troubles was near, but then one of the guys ran out with a fire extinguisher.
Anyways. Fitted it, adjusted it to 3bar. Fitted a wideband lamba and placed it in the car. I sat in the passenger seat while the car was ran on the rollers. Wait till you read this!!!
Idle : 14-15 afr.
750-3000 : between 12-13 afr
3000-5000: 9.6-10.6afr
5000-6000: 10.6ish
6000+ : 13.3-13.7afr!!!
What the hell????? Fuelling is all over the shop. How the guy at the previous rolling road never noticed i'll never know.
Anyways, cut a long story short.
Graham L reckons the intercooler leak is messing with the air/flow meter and causing overfuelling midrange. Its lean at the top end because graham backed the fuelling off because i was told it was high throughout the range. So.
Original gtech2 is now back in the car and intercooler is due to be ordered soon. Going to re-run with new intercooler and see what its like with the original gtech2.
Interesting but very disappointing!!!! Didnt complete either of the runs because of the afr readings. Got to 320bhp at 6000ish rpm. Torque was 278lb/ft but considering thats with 9.6afr they were impressed!!!
Just generally feel sick now tho.
Ross
Posted By: Flea
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/11/2006 22:39
Unfortunate day Ross, I wouldn't mess about any more with crude fueling attempts just get it sorted with a Unichip or live map. Sounds like you start to fuel ok around 5500rpm and then lean it out at the top end which will give you a bit more power so 320bhp is good but it's getting dangerous! I'm running 11.2 midrange and then even I start to lean out a bit towards redline at 11.8 w hich just about right I think coupés do quite well runnning on the rich side.
P.S. So is the MAHA dyno ok? What was your wheel power?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/11/2006 22:49
Wheel power stated 245bhp at 6000rpm ish. So on the MAHA dyno it seems that wheel power is really low in comparison with there fly figure.
At the other dyno i used recently, there wheel power was 284bhp and they stated that 30bhp more would be around the bhp figure that i would have! that would bring me to about 314bhp. So you can see that the flywheel figures are similar but the at the wheel figures are different.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 26/11/2006 00:42
Sorry to hear this mate.
Not been a good day for you at all.
I would agree ther's a lot of difference between your flywheel and your wheels. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've been told, to lose 30bhp or so here is about the norm. 75 seems an awful lot??
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 26/11/2006 01:35
Quote:
I would agree ther's a lot of difference between your flywheel and your wheels. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've been told, to lose 30bhp or so here is about the norm. 75 seems an awful lot??
I was at Falkland on Friday, and having a look at my graph I am losing 60 brake between fly and wheels. Maybe it is just that particular roller
Posted By: Flea
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 26/11/2006 01:54
That is the way MAHA rollers work... higher load so lower wheel power but very accurate fly power.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 00:36
Went back on the rollers today...
Have been playing with my adjustable fuel pressure regulator and my wideband lambda sensor.
Firstly the car was boosting perfectly, and the fuelling was where i wanted it.
Took it to the rollers and there was an rs4 on the rollers. Asked a few questions and found out that even with a performance chip it was under the stated manufacturers power. Guy said every one he's tested is the same. Interesting eh?
Anyways, get my car on the rollers. Hooked up and start to run it up. Guy quickly confirms that the wideband i have is reading wrong on idle but part throttle is slightly lean and that i should change my normal lambda sensor. So thats something to do.
Anyways, onto the recording.
Car held boost well and was brilliant until 4000rpm at which point there was a loud bang and a "whoooosh".. brown trousers moment.
Fortunately it was a boost pipe that blew off. Jubilee clip is completely wrecked and rusted so replaced and sorted (the pipe that comes up from the old side mount position) and back on the rollers to continue the power run.
Get to the end after some more scary moments (nothing wrong, me just crapping it) and the guy gets out laughing.
291bhp at the wheels. at 6500rpm.
Power at 7000rpm was 276bhp at the wheels.
So pretty happy with that.
I'll get my graph loaded up asap.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 00:52
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b176/h2ypr/Copyofdigipics001.jpgHere is the graph.
Ross
p.s. done a revised graph on excel but cant figure out how to get it into a picture instead of worksheet. Anyone know?
Posted By: mattB
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 00:57
Take a photo of your 'puter screen?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 01:18
And when did you do the 4X4 conversion?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 01:41
Lol. Its just the systemt that he uses.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 02:50
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 04:11
Very nice Ross
Did they give you a torque print out too or just power ?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 04:12
Just power. Worked out the torque and bhp from the fly.
They usually put boost and temperatures on it aswell ... but didnt
Ross
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 04:18
Thats a shame they didnt give you the torque plot, it would show how quickly the turbo was spooling up, you cant get an accurate torque measurement by just trying to work it out from a bhp plot
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 04:19
well you can work it out from the bhp at the wheels with a calculation.... 291 at the wheels and the peak torque is 265lb/ft.
Ross
Posted By: JohnS
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 11:25
Thats a shame they didnt give you the torque plot, it would show how quickly the turbo was spooling up, you cant get an accurate torque measurement by just trying to work it out from a bhp plot
There's no reason you can't as they are mathematically linked. The spoolup is a property of the dyno load applied to the wheels and because different dynos use different loads it is not possible to compare spoolup based on dyno printouts
V. nice result by the way - very flat torque curve means good power everywhere. Quite similar to the stock torque curve (except that drops off 7-800rpm earlier). Looks like you have a very well matched turbo.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 16:22
The only query i have about the setup is why the power is dying at 6500rpm? Is something on my system restricting it top end? Is it the turbo for instance? Or something else i havent done/overlooked? Would my induction kit for instance be the wrong one?
Ross
Posted By: mattB
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 16:35
Is it not just because you're tailing off the boost towards the redline?
Or does your boost controller not let you do that??
Posted By: Flea
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 16:39
It's the turbo! You are running a pretty small compressor and turbine wheel (with a 0.64 housing) which means it will choke at higher rpms. The 28R is good for more midrange grunt and a wide spread of torque. If you want more top end then you will need to go bigger and trade a bit of bottom end.
Based on your 291bhp @ wheels, this gives you a 335bhp at the fly which is going some on a 28R!! Still not happy?!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 16:39
It doesnt allow me to do that... if it was up to the greddy, it would hold 1.4 bar to redline!
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 16:41
It's the turbo! You are running a pretty small compressor and turbine wheel (with a 0.64 housing) which means it will choke at higher rpms. The 28R is good for more midrange grunt and a wide spread of torque. If you want more top end then you will need to go bigger and trade a bit of bottom end.
Based on your 291bhp @ wheels, this gives you a 335bhp at the fly which is going some on a 28R!! Still not happy?!!
When looking as a comparison against suba and sheik then no. I technically have 1 advantage over them both. I have slightly more headwork. However sub has his unichip and some little tricks that hes going to unveil at the weekend supposedly!
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:02
Ok been looking at my last 2 graphs from ava. And its amazing the difference getting your fuelling and thermostat and intercooler sorted, can make
Lol.
Previously at 2500rpm i was making around 210 lb/ft torque.
On my newest graph thats sitting at 232 lb/ft roughly. So thats 20 lb/ft increase low down.
5500rpm is 303 lb/ft on the new one.
5500rpm is nearer 297 lb/ft on the old one.
Torque at 7000rpm seems similar maybe a few extra on the new one but generally everything seems to be up.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:15
you should still be able to make power at the top end with a GT28R. Mine starts to tail off at 7,000 but is still building rather than tailing off. You wont have increasing power at the top like the bigger turbo cars though. If your power is dying at 6,500 then it suggests you have a restriction somewhere IMO, I doubt it's the induction kit.
Best example was a little blat I had with Flea on the way to santa pod (when his car was on gt28rs - 370bhp??) and also at the pod itself. The cars were very even until 5,500 - 6,000 rpm where the bigger turbo started pulling lenghts very noticeably.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:17
So what have you got that might be different then dude?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:22
my complete spec is in hall of fame section - have a look and see. Could be as simple as intercooler piping route + smoothness etc. or the exhaust itself. I believe we also run different IC's
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:23
What intercooler you running?
I doubt its the piping route, because that would affect spool up which seems to be in my favour at the moment.
Ross
Posted By: Flea
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:27
This is going to be interesting for the 28R boys
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:29
This is going to be interesting for the 28R boys
This information you mean?
ross
Posted By: Flea
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:39
Ok all pretty much have the same spec i.e. GT28R, headwork, etc.
Torque - Suba vs Sheikhs vs h2ypr Obviously different rolling roads etc but there is something strange going on with your car Ross
Have you sneaked in a Garrett VNT turbo?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 25/01/2007 17:46
Whats a VNT turbo?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 26/05/2007 18:58
Just bring this to the front again. After getting my fuelling issues *kinda* resolved, do you guys think its worth going for a RR to check it out again?
Ross
edited to say : im running less boost at redline, as i believe, after taking advice from others, that heat is reducing my top end torque and bhp.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 26/05/2007 22:33
It means Variable Nozzle Turbine. Basically, it a turbo which changes the angle of the turbine blades depending on its speed. The benefits are reduced lag and optimal torque and power throughout the rev range. They've been in use on diesel truck engines for years. The new 997 Turbo uses VNT units and AFAIK, its the only mass production petrol engine to use them so far.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 26/05/2007 22:54
So does h2ypr have a VNT turbo, is he telling porkies or is it down to a one off magical head by Barbz?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 26/05/2007 23:18
Its the head.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 28/05/2007 00:19
I run an ANEW Digital 008C intercooler - Evo replica off ebay.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 28/05/2007 00:23
I was checking my intercooler run against mattb's today and mines seems shorter.... so maybe that is a contributing factor.
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 28/05/2007 00:28
I know that Sheiks ran high boost midrange - which might explain his higher torque figure.
I'm not sure if all three cars are still running standard cams?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 28/05/2007 00:30
Im on stnd. You are aswell arent you?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 28/05/2007 00:49
yep - I think Sheiks has C&B cams... He was also running aquamist, though not mapped to it.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 28/05/2007 14:13
Oh right. So i dont have cams. That would explain the difference high up the rev range?
Ross
Posted By: Flea
Re: Crappy crappy bum bum. - 28/05/2007 14:24
He doesn't have cams, just some mild headwork and water injection.