So how far will I get?

Since 2019 my coupe has done a grand total of sixty miles, from dry storage to Joe's to MOT station and back a couple of times.

Now it's unSORNed, taxed, tested, and insured. On Saturday it leaves Joe's to go to Berlin

Sweepstake on how far it gets?

Neil

All the way there without issue

And back in three months!

Have a brilliant journey, I'm really envious.

It's a well established fact that coupe reliability is inversely proportional to how many times the car has been at a Fiat dealer, so I'm sure yours will be fine.

That was funny

You don't mention how it's getting there, "it leaves", how far "it gets" no mention of it being driven, suspect it's a catch question.

Bet it goes even better on the 1st tank of FRESH fuel!

Enjoy the journey! A well deserved stein when you get there!!

MM

Just to clarify: I'm driving it out of Joe's yard and the all the way to Berlin stopping only at Tesco's (for high concentrate fruit squash); at Morrisons (for large jars of Marmite and Lea and Perrins) and either for proper English cheese, and at a hotel at Dover. And no doubt about three more filling stations than the diesel used to take, or the French Thing (tm) that does fifty to the gallon.

Bad fuel was the only fail on the MOT test so fresh already refilled for the pass.

At least it won't get stolen with marmite on board.

It will run like a dream, no issues

It's done 186k miles already, and it's done the trip before many times, I have no worries!

But I'm running out of marmite and they only sell it here in tiny little jars that cost a fortune and only do half a dozen slices of toast.

Neil

I always thought (probably not the first to do so) that marmite would be a good name for a broomie (yellow and black) few things divide opinion as much as coops and marmite.

Incidently I read in my local rag that Neil Barnes is opening a photography gallery in Bridport, Dorset, right opposite the old Beach and Barnacle restaurant! sounds like you are going to be busy!

Apparently I am a man of many parts!

Nooo...definitely not!

Neil - you will arrive home without incident I am certain

Hope you don't need too many, safe journey.

Well it's got to Ashford, 200 miles in 22 litres

👍

So there was a small amount of concern: after four hundred miles though France, Belgium, Holland, and Germany, the coupe started losing power in what felt very like fuel starvation, though it didn't stop on me and kept moving through an amazing diversion from the motorway to a filling station that turned out to be closed with no obvious way back to the motorway - though I wasn't very happy at going back on with the compromised power; fifty miles an hour on an autobahn isn't a joke!

Although filling took only 47 litres, so the tank was nowhere near empty, filling up restored everything to health and happiness.

As a side note, since the old fuel was drained to replace with new to meet the emissions test, the car has required two primes of the pump before it will start. It's likely that these two faults are connected, and I agree with Joe's suggestion that something is unwell around the swirl pot plumbing.

So that's first on the list; the next two issues are the windows (there's an intermittent connection somewhere around the control unit) and the speedo, which likes to stick at sixty and is probable a soldering issue. After that, I'll see if I can find out why the wipers stop moving when they squirt (and I might do something about getting a single wipe somehow, though I haven't thought that through yet. Might look at rearranging the squirter jets too). The starter didn't want to for the first couple of tries yesterday morning, though it's been fine since... might live with that since it's such a pain to get to!

Other than that: the pressures and temperatures have been spot on throughout, including general bimbling along, traffic jams, and a little high speed running. One problem with the coupe: whenever anyone passed me, they slowed down in my blind spot to have a good look

Neil

p.s. The Marmite's ok, but the cheese didn't enjoy the temperatures. We'll see what it's like after it cools down in the fridge. Temperatures outside were over thirty all day; we got through nine half-litre bottles of water and a litre of coke zero, as well as drinks at stops en route.

Good to hear you made it s&s Neil

Told you that you would make it there But with the fuel issue, I don't know what was done to get the old fuel out, but it could be that the small pipe between the fuel pump and the fuel holder could have a tiny split in it, hence why it has taken longer to prime in the morning and that a fuel tank of fuel made the difference.

I suspect something similar, but it's been so long since I've been in a fuel tank that I can't visualise it. I'll get in there as soon as I can.

Page 170

The fuel rail should remain pressurised so if it's losing pressure overnight via a leaking injector or fuel returning to the tank (leaking pressure regulator, or is there some kind of NRV somewhere?) then it needs the double priming thing to fully re-pressurise it ready for starting.

Ok, I took the fuel pump out for inspection this morning. Here's a quick how-to which might get moved to the right place later

OBVIOUS SAFETY WARNING - NO NAKED FLAMES, NO SOURCES OF IGNITION, NO SMOKING, NO VAPING

How the swirl pot works: Fuel is pumped at high pressure - five bar or so - to pressurise the fuel system. That's regulated by the fuel regulator into the fuel rail at a fixed pressure above the manifold pressure - so the ECU has a little less work to do; it simplifies the fuel delivery calculations. What is left over goes back to the fuel pump - so if you've got your boot down, the manifold pressure is high but there isn't a lot of fuel left over to go back to the tank; at idle, almost all the fuel goes back.

That return fuel goes into the bottom of the swirl pot through a tiny jet, which allows it to collect more fuel as it goes past (there's a small vent in the bottom of the swirl pot) and keep the swirl pot full of fuel. The top of the swirl pot is open to the tank. The pump is in the swirl pot and has to be submerged in order to work, and the job of the swirl pot is to make sure it's covered at all times.

Obviously, if the fuel level in the tank is over the top of the swirl pot, it's just going to fill from above. Once the fuel level gets down to that point though, the only way to fill the swirl pot is via the vent at the bottom being pumped by the returning fuel. As long as that's working, then everything should be fine.

In my case, I was getting fuel starvation at about 1/3-1/4 of a tank (I put 40 litres in afterwards) with all the usual symptoms: wouldn't rev with no load, missing while moving, and getting worse...

• Remove the two electrical connections: pump power and fuel gauge. They need the clip on the side - easily visible - to be pushed away from the body with a screwdriver or similar.
• Remove the fuel go and return connections. Beware: the plastic under there is likely thirty years old and fragile! Squeeze in the tabs and pull gently while twisting.
• Remove the remaining tank vent pipe - I think it goes to the charcoal canister - by removing the 8mm nut and twisting/pulling up. There's an o-ring there that will want to hang on.
• Remove the lock ring. You'll need a rubber hammer and something like a wide screwdriver to start things turning. Again, treat it gently; you don't want to chip off the twist grips and you certainly don't want to break it.
• Lift the pump partway out of the tank. It won't come all the way immediately because it doesn't fit through the rubber seal, so...
• Remove the rubber seal. It sort of lifts out but it has a ridge that keeps it in place, so you need to fold it slightly to get it out. Don't drop it in the tank - it will come out with the pump now but best to keep a grip on it.
• Pull the pump all the way out. You'll need to juggle it and turn it because (on mine at least) the swirl pot is the same diameter as the hole. Most of the petrol in the swirl pot will slowly drain out through the bottom vent but you can tip it to empty most of the fuel back into the tank

When I inspected the pump there was nothing obviously wrong. I cleaned up everything and discovered that when I blew down the return pipe it hooted at me, which didn't feel right. There's a tiny green jet down there with no obvious way to remove it so I blasted it with WD40; after that the WD40 appeared within the swirl pot and and when blowing - which felt easier - there was no hoot. So perhaps I had something stuck in that jet?

Reassembly is, in the famous words, a reversal of the above procedure. The only tricky (hah!) bit is getting the sealing ring back in place... you have to have the swirl pot below it and the rest of the unit above it; you *can't* put the seal on the pump body and push it into place because the ridge stops it. I suspect it's a lot easier if the tank is on the floor because the access is terrible through the boot floor.

Anyway, the car started without issue once everything was pressurised again; let's see what happens!

"Nice one" as they say Neil; we'll get Kelv onto its inclusion in the Howto section.

I used a hammer on the end of a block of wood with an appropriately-shaped end to minimise damage to the ridges on the screw-cap as I thought something metal might damage them.

Pics of the top of the fuel pump showing the two electrical connections and the lock ring (I already removed the fuel and bleed lines); the base of the pump showing the jet (green, centre); the necessary tools; and a proof that the car is actually here

Neil

Hmm. Doesn't appear to have made any difference to the multi-prime starting. Don't know yet if the pump still works at low fuel levels, maybe I need a new pump/assembly.

I don't seem to remember struggling with getting the fuel pump carrier out of the tank, but then again, I did it so many years ago. I also found using a block of wood instead of a screwdriver for removing the lock ring was better and less chance of damaging it with a screwdriver. Interesting that nothing was untoward when you took everything out. Did you check the fuel hose between the fuel pump and the top of connection?

I didn't have a piece of wood to hand, but I did have a rubber mallet and a big screwdriver

There was nothing untoward inside the pump/swirl pot with the possible exception of the hooting jet. It's possible I'm looking at two separate problems here... It would seem - I need to get the fuel system diagrams out and study them - pressure should be maintained in the fuel rail by the injectors not being closed, by the pressure regulator being closed by default when the pump is off, and logically a non-return valve somewhere.

I did blow down the pump output while I had it out and I recall it being closed - but not sure whether that was a hard block or not. Need to fish it all out again, perhaps... or there's always https://www.ebay.de/itm/255655863775

It does seem logical that the non-return valve is at the pump motor, but when I removed the go and return pipes, there was no fuel flow from the pipes though there was some hissing from the pump outlet. Which suggests perhaps the regulator?

More thinking required.

Neil

Neil,
I wonder if one of the feed pipes in the tank has a split, as when I changed my pump out earlier this year mine was split???

Cheers Jamie

Isn't that what I just said on the previous page?

yep, my bad

Confined to barracks for an hour at Chatsworth Jamie

Upon removing the pump for a further inspection, it was obvious that I could in fact blow down the outlet pipe and hear air escaping within.

Separated the internal pipe to the pump and couldn't blow down it, so no leak there; it had to be at connection where that corrugated tube connects to the pump outlet (at the top of the unit, not the actual pump end). That seal is complicated because there are a couple of ribs that run vertically outside the sprog and no apparent recess for them in the corrugated tube; it makes getting a good seal a bit tricky. However, managed to get the tube clamped so that I was unable to blow down it.

Bear in mind I obviously can't generate enough hot air - in spite of 33k posts - to push five bar down there, so it's possible that there is still a leak under full pressure. That said, a couple of morning starts worked on the first turn of the key and didn't spend a few seconds either initially churning on the starter or spluttering badly until the fuel was flowing, so that's hopeful.

Blowing down the return feed produced the same delightful hoot as previously, so I'm assuming that's how it's supposed to work. I wonder if the fuel starvation was actually the pump sending so much of its output sideways rather than through the plumbing that there simply wasn't enough flow in the return to allow the swirl pot to swirl, hence things not working once the tank level got below the top of the pot?

We'll see.

Neil

A couple of gratuitous pics of the swirlpot and the cap-removal-tool; not sure if the 20vt design is similar to the 16v but the Fiat clip at the top of the corrugated hose is visible.

Yah, mine's been replaced in the past and it has a jubilee clip, not so happy. The pump system is the same though it's possible the pump is uprated for turbo models. I think there's still a slight leak, but certainly not as bad as it was.

Things seem to be looking up. The car has been starting ok in the matter of the fuel pump, but has had an intermittent fault where the start clunks but doesn't spin. Could be any number of things - bent shaft has been suggested, or poor/worn contacts in the solenoid, or worn brushes/commutator in the motor itself.

But given the difficulty of replacing the beastie, I only want to do it once so I've just ordered a new replacement. https://www.ebay.de/itm/284631335742 seems not a bad deal at under eighty quid.

I still don't know if the low-fuel level starvation is cured by the fuel pump fix but I expect it to be. The fuel is down to the level at which it started on the trip over; I'll run it a little lower as a confidence check.

Neil

That's good news! I have tried freeing up starter motors in the past and it is never a permanent solution. You must be spoilt for choice on the spares when you're in continental Europe!

I dunno about spoilt for choice; half the difficulty is discovering that the damn things are called!

Useful info for 16vNA though: the HSN/TSN numbers - which ebay uses to identify your model and see what fits - are 4001/675 (/676 for 16vt)

Neil

A baby starter in its nest, waiting to fledge and fly free!

Looks brand new - I can't see any blood, sweat or tears on it yet.

It is brand new, fresh at some point from the Bosch Fiat Coupe Starter Factory! If the weather behaves, I'll spin it up tomorrow and if it spins, in it goes.

To replace the starter on a coupe is a pain in the proverbial. Even if you have a ramp (please can I have a two-poster for xmas?) it's a pain; doing it the ground is worse... oh, and as I recall it's slightly worse for the 20v than the 16v. But don't let that discourage you! There are minor detail changes between the 16 and 20 but the idea is the same.

Obligatory safety warning: Ideally use drive-up ramps for the front wheels. If they're not available, then jack up the car as high as you can and support it carefully under the front hard points with jack stands. Don't try and jack it all at once; it will rock and potentially slide from the stand when you try to do the other side. A couple of inches each side, rinse and repeat. Be absolutely certain that the car isn't going anywhere before you go under it.

• Test that the new starter actually spins by clipping jump leads to the case (negative) and to the larger threaded bar (positive) on the solenoid. Use a crocodile clip lead or a suitable screwdriver to the smaller threaded bar from the larger. At that point the solenoid should pull in and the motor spin.
• Remove the battery, negative terminal first please!
• (optional, but gives access to the top bolt of the starter and lets a little more light on the job!) Remove the battery tray and inner. There are four 13mm bolts on the tray to the sidewall and the bottom one - below the tray - needs only to be loosened off a couple of millimetres as its in a slot. On a 16v there are two 10mm nuts that hold the coil and amplifier to the tray; they'll need to come off to let the coil dangle. At the back of the tray are three cable management clips which need to be released to let the cables out. At this point the starter is very nearly almost visible from above; follow the fat red wire.
• Working underneath the car: First open the plastic cover over the power leads and remove the 13mm nut with the main power cable and the 10mm nut with the solenoid drive. Try not to lose them; the new starter may not have them supplied. Move the cables out of the way.
• There are three 13mm bolts which hold the starter in. One of them is bottom left, if you're looking along the starter (call it eight o'clock), and is visible from below. The others are not visible; one at eleven o'clock and the last at two. This last one may be easier to access from the top; depends how bendy you are and how long your ratchet extensions are. I did all three from below.
• With the bolts out, the starter motor is held by a hollow dowel pin which may either stay in the block or on the starter. Getting the motor out takes some juggling but on the 16 it will come out downwards and to the car's right. It may also come out upwards but I'm not sure.
• Reassembly is a reversal of the above, noting the position of the dowel and possibly removing it from the starter if required.
• Optional - discover that the 16v starter you just bought is in fact a 20v starter which although it will fit the holes and wiring is about 15mm shorter in the nose department and will not engage with the starter ring. Begin an argument in German!

Today I learned that the German for 'starter gear ring' is 'Anlasserzahnkranz'

Neil

A comparison of the two starters. 20v on left, 16v on right.

The 16VT one is also different to the 16v. I forget exactly what though.

The part numbers on the original Magnetti Morelli 16VT starter motor are E70R-14/12 and 63223436.

Neil. you already have a more modest Howto on this, would you like Kelv to replace it with the above?

It probably wouldn't hurt. This is perhaps more safety conscious.

Well, it's two steps forward and one step back...

• The fuel pressurisation/starvation thing appears to be resolved; I've run the tank down to an eight with the warning light on and no problems have been apparent. I'm still a little unsure about the clamp in the pipe in the pump but it seems to be working at the moment.
• In spite of having the starter refurbished, it still has the same problem as previously: the solenoid pulls in but doesn't always spin the motor. Which suggests strongly that the contactor in the solenoid is unhappy after thirty years... you'd think nothing was built to last anymore
• The speedo has been removed and a couple of fractured solder joints (as expected) on the mounting pins resoldered. Obviously I won't know if it sticks until it does, but first signs on a speedy test run were hopeful.
• The electric window controller is puzzling. It was sensitive to the power leads being in just the right place... can't see any issue with the supply or connector, so pulled the unit out (it's under the dash, not under the right seat as per the 20v) and disassembled to check for any breaks or other issues. Nothing obvious, so resoldered all the high-current pins on general principles... tested fine with just the PCB floating under the dash; fine with the PCB back in the box just hanging, bolted back in place and it's sensitive to the position of the power leads again. Still thinking about this one.

The refurbished starter having repeatedly failed to operate, it has been replace by a further second-hand part, which has so far not failed. It's clearly more worn than mine but it's a weight off my mind... I was getting concerned that I might have had to push-start the car all the way home later this month.

Neil

Poor stuff from the reconditioned job

Will they refund?

Don't know; probably won't bother. The recon is new bearings and bushes and such in the motor, hard to see what they can do with a sealed unit contactor which isn't available.

The chap in Sunningdale/ Virginia Water who refurbished my starter motor a few years ago said that he fitted the last one available that he knew of.

Yeah. Though you might expect that with 90% of the coupes being sold over here, there should be proportionally more spares...

I've seen a couple of dissections on youtube of similar solenoids, and the crimped construction suggests that angle grinders and brute force are required to disassemble (though the internals are obvious once you're there). Perhaps next year I'll dissect it, but for now, it's starting and that's the main task.

So, having got here in one piece, I'm coming back on Wednesday. Here's what a couple of months' bimbling around has revealed:

• Tired starter motor contactor: sometimes required multiple attempts before it would spin the starter. Replaced with used spare and possibly to fix the original next year
• Loss of pressure in the fuel line: down to a poor seal in the fuel pump at the top of the flex hose. That's improved but will need further attention since it sometimes runs roughly for a couple of seconds while the pressure builds. The associated fuel starvation at low tank levels, because too much fuel was leaking from the pipe to allow the swirl pot to fill properly, appears to be resolved so the leak is probably much less now, though still present
• Speedo sticking at circa 60mph: resoldered faulty joint in the speedo and not seen since
• Windows not winding: looks like a faulty earth return at (one of) the connector(s) to the winder motor control box. Perhaps a break where the cable is crimped or perhaps just a poor connection; working at the moment so another one for next year
• From the smell, it appears that there's a slight weep of gearbox oil onto the exhaust (and possibly also engine oil from the rocker cover). Not enough to worry about yet but next time Joe has it on the ramps we might be able to see something - drive shaft seal perhaps? I'll need to clean a bit of the drive before we end our rental
• Odd electrical issue: occasionally when using the windscreen washer jets the motor stops... I've had a look at the diagrams in the past and can't see anything obvious, so not worrying about it
• The dipped beams are bloody awful; mostly looks like discolouration inside the light units. Temporary solution: only drive in daylight
• Headlining flopping around in the breeze; fortunately the sunroof restricts the amount a flop and I have no back seat passengers

The car will be making an appearance (though sadly I won't) at the Birmingham show in November in stunning - if temporary - new livery!

Neil

Can be a poor contact on the switch lever, I had a similar issue and also the intermittent first position sometimes doesnt work. After changing the wiper motor assembly (I had one for spare) and nothing changed, I discovered that If I pull gently the lever towards the steering wheel (or press towards the windshild) it works.

Yes, that's my thought: that the 'wiper on' bit disconnects sometimes when the switch is pulled to trigger the wash. However, the self-park in the motor itself should continue in that case, and it clearly works normally when not washing.

Neil

Maybe the washer triggers the intermittent mode and in that mode the self-park is not supposed to work (maybe self parking is just related to normal wiper activity, and intermittend is just 1 move + relay time repeat that 1 move). I had the same wiper stopping when washing, plus intermittent not engaging on 2 different motors, so it must be a "feature".

The car has returned to the UK without any serious issues; there are minor issues listed above but none of them are show-stoppers - barely more than inconveniences, with the exception of the lights, which will be refurbished before I next use it next year!

Have you considered a pair of René's headlight lenses Neil?

Not yet; this is still in planning.

The mission to return to Potsdam has today included a car drive from Evesham to Oxford; a bus from Oxford to Luton; and now we wait in a hotel until half past four tomorrow morning. Then a flight to Berlin; a Regio train to Potsdam; a tram to the bus interchange; and a bus home.

Neil

You like the easy life Neil !

It's this bloody retirement. I never get time to sit still.

We're back in Potsdam now, with just the French Thing[tm] on the drive.

One of our esteemed members has fitted these using silicon channel as a seal, having first completely removed all previous remains then refurbing the lower section. It looks really neat and has the advantage of being splittable should anything go awry.